What intake? SBC. Turbo, Hilborn, both?, Thinking aloud... what do you guys think Options

[Andyrew]

Paul, I dont understand, why do you say that there can not be an intercooler in place between the turbo and the intake? If the piping was cut and made round, then everyting can be made simply.

Are you saying that any draw through system will not effectively accept an intercooler?

This does not make sense to me.

I am also considering this system and fabricating all of my own piping, including an intercooler.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...ssPageName=WDVW

Andrew

[Dr. Roger]

So Andy,
Your thinking something like this drawing.

Intercoler on the right. Right?

(IMG:http://www.homemadeturbo.com/turbo_projects/turbo_projects_banner.jpg)

And the Ebay pic of that little black plastic tube with red tube ends is the current non intercooled intake piece? That would be a project. But possible if U ask me. =-)

I say, "Do it. They will come" LOL

Heck I still want to create a real V8 cooling system and keep the entire front trunk.... Brain still hurts from last think session...

[turbo914v8]

QUOTE

Paul, I dont understand, why do you say that there can not be an intercooler in place between the turbo and the intake? If the piping was cut and made round, then everyting can be made simply. Are you saying that any draw through system will not effectively accept an intercooler?

Good day Andrew,

Any system can be mad to work in just about any configuration you choose, but it will take considerable time, effort and $$$. That being said, trust me, do your self a favor and stay away from the draw through systems. I am no expert, but here is what I know. In the draw through systems both the air and fuel are mixed and sent through the turbo where they are both pressurized and then sent to the engine for combustion. Problems with the draw through system are numerous. My number one problem is that the addition of an intercooler leads to an almost impossible control of the air fuel mixture through these types of systems. The intercoolers are designed to cool air not fuel as a result the fuel tends to fall out of the air mixture and puddle inside the intercooler. You have no control over the air fuel mixture when random puddles from inside the intercooler enter the combustion chamber. Another problem is lag. The draw through systems is responsible for turbo charged engines getting a bad rep for lag. Again because both the air and fuel travel through the turbo the fuel atomized in the air moves slower and contributes to lag. There are numerous other problems associated with the draw through system, but my main problems center around the ones aforementioned.

The draw through systems are by far cheaper than the blow through system. Its just logistics. Fewer parts, less boost, less power output. But my question has always been why let the system limit you. With a complete blow through system the sky is the limit. Want more power turn up the boost, not enough boost change the turbo. I am not afraid to say it. "I am greedy". I want the power. If something close to 500 HP is good enough for you then by all means build yourself a draw through turbo system. But I would have to ask why when you can easily buy a create motor that puts out 500 hp normally aspirated, so why bother with the hassles of turbo charging. Want to exceed 500 hp, believe me you will. Then a blow through system is for you. I have built blow through systems from junk on a shoestring budget trust me they all kick ass for what they cost. I have nothing to gain weather you go draw through or blow through, but I just thought I would share with you and hopefully save you some of the time, money and aggravation that I had to endure in these past few years building turbo charged cars.

Trust me I am crazy, I even turbo charged my shifter go cart. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[Andyrew]

BTW heres a clearer pic of the turbo pics..

[Andyrew]

Paul, Thank you for your insite.

I do agree with you now that fuel could be trapped inside the intercooler.

But intercoolers are not the only way to cool down the air.

My father uses water/methonol injection on his 944 turbo race car, It doesnt provide much more hp, but it does alow him to use more boost safely.

If I find that 500 hp is not enough, It will be for other reasons than engine... lol

I could build a super monster turbo system, but I dont have money for that, I do have a little money to tinker around with a turbo system.

I have 3 reasons for a turbo
1. The sound
2. the linear power delivery
3. Because its different, and I can.

I think I'll buy this turbo system, then put it on in a couple months as I collect fuel injection parts. This will go in with the 915 trani.

I'll baby it like I did with the 901 for a while.

Roger.. yup. I believe thats a honda civic engine pictured though.


THanks all!

[turbo914v8]

Ok, here is my last ditch effort to bring you over to the blow through side. E-bay item
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...&category=33742

or item number 7985905664

How is that for cheep. Now all you need is any v8 FI system and piping. Can you weld? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/welder.gif)

New parts too. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

ebay

[Andyrew]

I was having a hard time figuring out how I was going to install a fuel injection system without it being the throttle body type, then you throw on this intake plumbing... Gaa!!!!

Im a learner welder...

Wastgate, turbo, bov. Granted its all new... but 450. What I need.
Custom header to accept turbo,
Plate to bolt ehaust side of turbo to
Plate to bolt intake side of turbo to.
Some kind of FI with a throttle body, that fits in the 914 engine bay
Intercooler if needed


When in actuality, I can buy the action for the turbo setup... REsell all the martin baker stuff, keep the turbo and wastegate, and do the exact same thing! With maybe some money to build a regular turbo setup.

Paul, I can see your trying to steer me away from this. But I dont have the money to build a completly custom turbo setup.
Yet.

Thanks!

Im thinking of bidding.

Paycheck is in 2 days.. lol

Andrew

[turbo914v8]

QUOTE

Custom header to accept turbo, Plate to bolt ehaust side of turbo to Plate to bolt intake side of turbo to. Some kind of FI with a throttle body, that fits in the 914 engine bay Intercooler if needed

Andrew, you don’t need a custom exhaust manifold to mount the turbo, you can use a standard header and weld on a flange. The flange cost $10.00.

The exhaust side of the turbo again mounts to a flange at a cost of $10.00. This flange in turn is welded to the standard exhaust system for the 914-v8 conversion witch you have to get anyway.

Intake side of turbo bolts to nothing just an air cleaner $20.00

FI with throttle body not needed at this point. A good rebuilt holly 650 will net you 400 to 500 hp rebuilt holly cost $150.00.

Intercooler not need at this point, you can run 5 to 8 psi no problems. Later you can get any intercooler and bump the boost up to 10 to 15 psi more power more fun, just for the price of an intercooler $200.00 to $400.00.

So like I said, it all could be had at a shoestring budget, you just have to put the time into research for parts.

Nuff said Andrew; at the end of the day I just want to help you get the most out of what every setup you go with. If ever you need information or assistance I am only an e-mail away. Good luck and keep us all informed on your progress.

[Andyrew]

I would choose FI because Im a programable guy.... lol

Messing around with dads Piggy back system fuel settings, the boost pressure, duty, ext... thats my idea of a good time! lol

My fun would be tuning it... not driving it... lol

Everything else you said is very informative.

Thanks alot Paul!

Andrew

[street legal go-kart]

Hey,
Neglected this thread,
Paul is right about not trying to cool the fuel/air charge.
If you cool the fuel charge rapidly enough to make a difference in performance, in an intercooler you run the setting off a fuel explosion. The raw fuel after it
condensates back into a liquid will develop static electricity from the passage of air over the surface and as we all know, electricity seaks a ground.
Big BOOMBOOM.
A draw though system where you blend fuel and air before intercool/compresion is Not a good thing.
I have see the results of compressing a fuel charge puddled in the bottom runners of a manifold.
Like I said Big BoomBoom.

jt

p.s.
If you take the intercooler out of the loop, problem solved.

[neo914-6]

Andrew,

Did you buy it? An old friend of mine has a twin turbo (Martin Turbo Systems) that might be up for sale...

[Andyrew]

I might be interested in the martin setup.

PM me details.

Andrew

[neo914-6]

He's an interesting guy, he personally has 20 classic rods, porsches, trucks, etc. and doesn't ever want to sell them. Can you say "accumulation". They are not pristine (except his 911s) and he works on them himself. I've tried for years to buy one of his -6's that just sits in a garage. Anyway I'll bug him again about the turbos and see if he'll part with them...