Is this really goin to happen?, 2035 Phase Out all new gas cars |
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Is this really goin to happen?, 2035 Phase Out all new gas cars |
ndfrigi |
Sep 23 2020, 02:36 PM
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#1
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,928 Joined: 21-August 11 From: Orange County Member No.: 13,474 Region Association: Southern California |
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andrewb |
Sep 25 2020, 04:37 AM
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 25-May 10 From: UK Member No.: 11,762 Region Association: None |
Morning gents - thought I'd chip in with a view from the other side of the pond. Firstly - as Brent the Badger says - good to see a (mostly) thoughful and considered discussion. Over here it all tends to get a bit animated and shouty - but then we're a bit further down the electric road than you are (with possible exception of CA ?).
Secondly I have to declare an interest - I work in the EV sector - mostly modifying Leafs and eNV200 vans so I know them well either in bits on the workshop floor or on the road as a daily driver. But I'm still a petrolhead (gearhead in American ?) at heart with diesel and gas cars at home and a garage full of motorbikes and - of course - a 914 on jackstands. There's a lot of sense in the posts above - Brent's points about the environment and any reduction in pollution is a good thing in particular. This relates to a point many people miss - just because it doesn't work for everybody all of the time doesn't mean it's not a good idea for some people some of the time. To look at it from another point of view a Ford F-150 is a good idea for some people (900,000 sold each year ?) some of the time - but no-one is suggesting that means that everyone wants one or should have one. Likewise with EVs - it works for some, not for others. As the technology improves 'some' will become 'most'. But it will never suit everybody all of the time - no-one is claiming that it will. There will always be applications and people and places where an EV doesn't work. Fine - but is that really a reason to say that it's a bad idea and no-one and nowhere else should have them ? I also liked the Henry Ford quote about a faster horse. You can imagine that people were having the exact same conversations at the time "These car things are useless - you have go to a special place to put fuel in" " There aren't enough of those places to put fuel in" "I can get grass and apples anywhere - for free" etc etc. Amazing how we made the transition really isn't it ? The biggest - almost only - limiting factor of EV acceptance is range and therefore the battery technology so there is a general point to be made here. There is an awful lot of nonsense - much of it extremely out of date - spoken about issues concerning the mining of the raw materials, battery manufacture, recycling old batteries etc etc. There is also a lot of good information out there written by people who actually know what they are on about. I won't claim to be an expert - it's a highly specialised and technical field which is changing all the time - so I'll simply link to the youtube channel of a battery electrochemist called Euan McTurk. https://www.youtube.com/c/pluglifetelevision I've tried to stay away from specifics because it can get personal but there are a couple of points I have to address. 1. I see statements that people will buy an EV when they can drive 1000 miles between charges. Why ? How often do you need to do that ? Does your ICE do that ? Can you do that ? 2. 'Used EVs are worthless' Not here - quite a thriving secondhand market and many dealers who only deal in EVs. In fact prices for used diesels are dropping rapidly. Actually any argument based on costs is going to be out of date quite quickly because of the technological advancements which lead to cost savings and the legislative changes which don't always follow logic and often have unintended consequences. If you've read through all that I'll finish with a quote from another great American: "Don't believe everything you read on the internet" (Abraham Lincoln) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) |
Superhawk996 |
Sep 25 2020, 06:01 AM
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#3
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,816 Joined: 25-August 18 From: Woods of N. Idaho Member No.: 22,428 Region Association: Galt's Gulch |
I've tried to stay away from specifics because it can get personal but there are a couple of points I have to address. 1. I see statements that people will buy an EV when they can drive 1000 miles between charges. Why ? How often do you need to do that ? Does your ICE do that ? Can you do that ? Yes, I do regulary drive 500 miles in a day either for work or for pleasure. As @bbrock can attest to, I do 2200 miles regulary in a 48 hour period with an ICE. Sure range isn't 1000 miles per tank of gas but I can fuel in about 10 minutes and then keep rolliing. The idea that I'd be limited to a range of 200-300 miles, have to plan a route around SuperChargers and then stop for 45 minutes or more every 200-300 miles simply isn't feasible for me. Will be doing another cross country run in November, so it's definately not a once in a lifetime thing for me. As stated, EV's may be fine for commuting around town but they don't work for everthing. If you wish to be limited to 200 miles of "freedom to travel" that is your choice. Not mine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif) Not to further muddy the waters but keep in mind the new generation of "connected cars" not only has the enablers to track where you go, how fast you go there, and has been software enabled to conduct a controlled shutdown of your vehicle if so directed. |
horizontally-opposed |
Sep 25 2020, 10:13 AM
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#4
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 3,431 Joined: 12-May 04 From: San Francisco Member No.: 2,058 Region Association: None |
I've tried to stay away from specifics because it can get personal but there are a couple of points I have to address. 1. I see statements that people will buy an EV when they can drive 1000 miles between charges. Why ? How often do you need to do that ? Does your ICE do that ? Can you do that ? Yes, I do regulary drive 500 miles in a day either for work or for pleasure. As @bbrock can attest to, I do 2200 miles regulary in a 48 hour period with an ICE. Sure range isn't 1000 miles per tank of gas but I can fuel in about 10 minutes and then keep rolliing. The idea that I'd be limited to a range of 200-300 miles, have to plan a route around SuperChargers and then stop for 45 minutes or more every 200-300 miles simply isn't feasible for me. Will be doing another cross country run in November, so it's definately not a once in a lifetime thing for me. As stated, EV's may be fine for commuting around town but they don't work for everthing. If you wish to be limited to 200 miles of "freedom to travel" that is your choice. Not mine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif) Not to further muddy the waters but keep in mind the new generation of "connected cars" not only has the enablers to track where you go, how fast you go there, and has been software enabled to conduct a controlled shutdown of your vehicle if so directed. ^ Yep. Your use case, EV isn't a fit. At least, not for the vehicle(s) you use on those trips (having just returned from a one-day trip from CA to CO and the same on the way home, I am deeply envious of your lifestyle!). Two thoughts here: 1) If we add an EV to our "fleet" of three cars, it would replace our Mazda, which is a lease. The 914 (the fun car) and 911 (usable semi-daily and road-trip car) would stay put. For the times that the 911 or an EV wouldn't work (maybe 0-4 times a year?), we could always rent something for a few days or a week, etc. If the EV lease is close-ish to where we are now, and we get rid of most of our monthly gas bill, I can live with that. 2) I was lucky to be an EV test hamster for a two-day run from Denmark to Germany last year about this time. Up til then, I think the only true EV I'd driven was a Leaf back in 2010. EVs just haven't interested me all that much, though some EV rides with friends who are into some serious hot-rodding (nutty old VWs to nuttier GT3s) surprised me and suggested these cars may end up getting FUN. Back to Denmark—which was a two-man run through the countryside, with one day of hooning all over the place (without raising ANY eyebrows, not even the bicyclists...try that in a 914-6 or GT3) and then a day of grand touring. The performance has been written about all over the place, so I'll skip that (though it was amazing...) and focus on something else: The Taycan Turbo could go further than my co-driver and I could. Eventually, we had to find a tree to pee on. I think we did 5 hours straight to get to the lunch stop, and we arrived with too much juice to allow us to quick-charge. So we went back out on the autobahn and burned off some juice (I'll see if I can post a link to that video). We returned for lunch, and like the day before, the charging setup was impressive: We pulled a water-cooled electrical line (you could just barely feel it pulsing) over to the Taycan, plugged it in, went and ordered a burger (didn't need to use the loo), and the car was charged sooner than we were done eating. About 20 minutes to get back to 85%. And this technology stands to get better. I agree 45 minutes is a non-starter. 20 minutes? Less? And as the charging stations increase in number, and the cars themselves get better, the arguments against EVs for legitimate touring decrease. Also: the lack of noise and the usual good Porsche seats ended up leaving me fresher upon my arrival than I might have been in something else. I've noticed more and more Teslas on 5 between SF and LA in the last couple of years. Used to be you'd see one and have range anxiety for and with them as you passed by them, eeking it out. They were fairly rare sights, maybe 1-3 brave souls. Now I see them all the time, and while some of them seem to hyper-miling it, most aren't. They're just using them as regular cars. I don't think EVs are a solution for everyone. But my better half and I realized that, if not the next lease, the one after has become a real possibility. It just might be a better way for one of our cars—and, potentially, the one we use most. Pity it won't be a Taycan, as a $$$,$$$ daily isn't in the cards. But there are plenty of other alternatives coming into the market, or already here… EDIT: Found that video of an EV on the autobahn…at 269 kmh (167 mph, indicated). Easy peasey, and accelerates from 120-150 mph like a turbocharged car… https://www.instagram.com/p/B20ACTVFGW3/?utm_source=ig_embed |
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