No end play on driveshaft, Engine assembly Options

[Wew]

Hi all,

I have been rebuilding my engine and the typical one step forward and back certainly applies here.

My big concern at this point is that I have zero axial play when performing the driveshaft test with the dial gauge. I removed all three rings and still had no play.

A new flywheel is on. I buried my head in the sand and continued assembling with my old three round shims and clutch and pressure plate installed.

The motor still turns nicely after heads, spark plugs and everything assembled.

So now my mind races back to an earlier post I had about the oil pump install.

I remember pushing the oil pump in and i could feel it move the camshaft as I pushed it flush on the engine case.

The one gear in the oil pump that goes into motor to marry up with the cam was proud on the shaft and stuck out to the point when I installed the cover plate it created so much friction that I could not turn the motor.

I took the one oil pump with the gear shaft out and used my press to push it down just a bit on the shaft.

This seemed to do the trick as the gear no longer created that extra friction to keep the motor from turning over.

Now we fast forward to me measuring end play, and now that I have zero I can’t help but think that original push with the oil pump may have removed any play on the drive and cam shafts.

Again the motor spins nicely. Full on bottom and top end rebuild.

The story of the oil pump install is located here for those who want additional background.
“Oil pumps and covers, are they interchangeable “

Mark Henry had mentioned something about being able to do some adjusting with the block assembled.

Please advise,


Thank you much,

Gary




A few photos added to show the type of pump and the actual gear sitting proud.
So close:

[barefoot]

Oil pump/ camshaft end play has nothing to do with crankshaft end play. Did you have the rear main oil seal in when testing end play ? should do that test without seal.

[Wew]

No oil seal in when testing the end play.

At one point I had the 2 bolts on and torqued at 45 and gave it everything I had pushing and pulling and was able to get .02-.03 movement but I think that was probably just flywheel flex
Once I torqued all 5 down to 79.5 I couldn’t get any movement either way.
All the tutorials I watch online there seems to be a distinctive clunk when others are checking.

Thanks for asking bare foot

[jcd914]

Put in just 2 of the shims and see what movement you can get.
How far assembled is the engine?

I usually use a large screw driver to pry against the flywheel nad then push forward on the flywheel and see if I can get the crank to slide back and forth some. The push and set up the dial indicator and gently pry/pull the crank back and measure.

Good luck
Jim

[iankarr]

Zero end play with no shims at all? What brand is the new flywheel?

[Wew]

I purchased the flywheel from LJ products 215mm porsche 914 stock flywheel.

Thanks for reading and giving all your insights.

Gary

[Wew]

Hi Jim,

Engine is buttoned up. No where along the assembly did I read or hear about axial play on the driveshaft.
All bearings are stock, confirmed on replacement of like kind bearings.
Engine turns over nicely but no luck on the axial play.
Going from memory the three shims measures in at (2) .34 and (1) at .43.
These were the original shims.
I put them Back on after reading about 3 being the number you want.
I am confused amd unsure if I just proceed with the build.
Anyone experience anything similar, please share.

Thanks again,

Gary

[wndsrfr]

Take off the flywheel and check endplay of bare crank....might have a slight nick making a burr on bearing thrust surface.....
I'll probably be flamed for this but I would then get a wood block and bfh and whack the shaft back and forth several times....then check endplay with no shims to calculate how much shim is needed.

[Mark Henry]

No oil seal in when testing the end play.

At one point I had the 2 bolts on and torqued at 45 and gave it everything I had pushing and pulling and was able to get .02-.03 movement but I think that was probably just flywheel flex
Once I torqued all 5 down to 79.5 I couldn’t get any movement either way.
All the tutorials I watch online there seems to be a distinctive clunk when others are checking.

Thanks for asking bare foot

Wrong wrong wrong!!!
You can use a couple screw drivers to pop the fly out as far as it goes, but you can't measure the fly while using the screwdrivers! What you're seeing is actual bending of the flywheel.

There has to be 3 shims, no more , no less.
I use 2 shims then torque to at least 40 lbs, take the measurement and then add the 3rd shim. IIRC the smallest shim is .008, so X3 = .024 of shim minimum.

If you can't get this then the engine has to come apart and find the issue.
Sorry, it sucks, but if you can't solve the issue then it has to be done.

FYI with the engine apart you can measure end play with feeler gauges. Put your bearing on the crankshaft, 2 or 3 shims, the flywheel and then use a feeler gauge to get the end play.

[Wew]

Thanks for the input.

For clarification, I was able to get the .2 -.3 movement by pulling on it by hand. The dial indicator measurement was taken after I pulled. There were no screw drivers in prying to change that measurement.

It still seemed way to tight as I had mentioned others get the clunk and a lot more movement.

I think my next steps are to remove the clutch, the flywheel and rear main seal, all three shims and try this again. Would it help if I removed the front tins and fan housing so I have access to both driveshaft ends?

And yes, it is very tempting to take a block of would and hit the driveshaft to see if I can get it to move. I have refrained but the thought has crossed my mind.

Stay tuned and please share any additional updates or input.

Thanks,

Gary

[Mark Henry]

When you say .2-.3 is that MM?

You want .003" (.076mm) to .006" (.152mm) end play.
I go for .003", but for you I'd try for say .004" end play.

Pull the spark plugs, the rings will drag a bit but the engine should spin freely. spin it several times.
When I build an engine I spin it when ever I can to make sure there's nothing is binding or hitting anywhere.

[Wew]

Thanks Mark!

Great advice to turn the motor a few times.

I also have the fan and belt hooked up to the alternator tight.

I am going to disconnect those as well.

Then I will give it another go.

And yes I mean .003 mm.

Thanks again for everyones feedback.

Before I hit the tear apart the motor option I want to be sure to exhaust all other possibilities.

I am a total rookie at this and it's my first 2.0 rebuild.

I follow instructions and videos well, but lack the big picture thought and understanding of the engine systems and the reading between the lines and checking for things that are not necessarily addressed in the manual or instructional videos.

Learning a lot.

Gary

[Mark Henry]

And yes I mean .003 mm.

Again this is wrong.

.003 of an inch

I actually am making a mistake by going 3 decimal places on millimetres, you only need to go 2 decimal places for metric.

0.08 mm to 0.15 mm is the end play range in metric.

0.003 inch to 0.006 inch is the end play range in standard measurement.

In North America machine shops mostly work in inches, so measurement is confusing because they often use the standard equivalent when we talk crankshaft and rod measurements and tolerances.

[Wew]

Thanks for the correction Mark.

I always sucked at math.

I plan on doing the axial play measurements again this weekend.

Will report back then.

Thanks a bunch for your input and knowledge.

Gary

[fixer34]

Just my .02 (that's cents, not mm or inches..), but if you are trying to get a 'clunk' sound, that shouldn't happen. With a correct end play of .003-.006 INCHES, you can't move the flywheel and crank far enough/fast enough to get a clunk.
If you can rotate the engine freely and get some slight movement in/out, you probably are pretty close.
There used to something called Plasti-gauge. Thin round strips of plastic-you put a piece in the gap you wanted to measure and tighten it down. Pull it apart and compare how flattened the plastic strip is to a chart. That tells what the play/gap/clearance is.
Alternative is using a dial gauge on the flywheel (I don't understand how someone is going to 'bend' a flywheel with a couple screwdrivers..) or splitting the case and using feeler gauges.

[Mark Henry]

Just my .02 (that's cents, not mm or inches..), but if you are trying to get a 'clunk' sound, that shouldn't happen. With a correct end play of .003-.006 INCHES, you can't move the flywheel and crank far enough/fast enough to get a clunk.
If you can rotate the engine freely and get some slight movement in/out, you probably are pretty close.
There used to something called Plasti-gauge. Thin round strips of plastic-you put a piece in the gap you wanted to measure and tighten it down. Pull it apart and compare how flattened the plastic strip is to a chart. That tells what the play/gap/clearance is.
Alternative is using a dial gauge on the flywheel (I don't understand how someone is going to 'bend' a flywheel with a couple screwdrivers..) or splitting the case and using feeler gauges.

Yes you can bend the flywheel, not by much, it's only a couple of thousands, but when your end play measurement is .003 to .006 it is significant. You can easily see this bending (also called deflection) with a dial indicator.

The dial indicator IMO has the greatest margin of error when used by an inexperienced user.
Even with an experienced user it's no more accurate (for this job) than with the feeler gauge methods.

I prefer using the end play tool, bolts on a mount hole, turn the screw and measure with a feeler gauge. IIRC the tool made by SIR is only about $10 at any aircooled bug parts supplier.

The crank out method: place the main thrust bearing on the crank, 2 shims, torque the flywheel on (about half torque will do, say 40lbs) and measure the gap with feeler gauges. Re shim till you have .003-.006.

I haven't used plasti-gauge since the early 90's.

Cranks and flywheels bend (flex) more than you think, it's why VW told Porsche that the 2.0 crank wouldn't work, why 1.7/1.8 cases have better condition line bores than 2.0 cases. Why cheap china cranks are not as good as Swedish steel.
I could provide examples ad nauseam.

I do agree if you hear a clunk you have way too much play, but I don't condone eyeballing it.

[Arno914]

OT: Back in 1999 "Mars Climate Orbiter" crashed on mars because "Inch" and "Metric" where mixed up during calculations. When do you People go metric like the rest of the world? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[fixer34]

OT: Back in 1999 "Mars Climate Orbiter" crashed on mars because "Inch" and "Metric" where mixed up during calculations. When do you People go metric like the rest of the world? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Preaching to the choir in my case. I've always liked the metric system since I was taught it some 50+ years ago. To the point that I'll do english to metric conversions, calculate what I need to, then convert back.

[Wew]

Some progress today and big relief.
I removed the alternator belt from the fan housing.
Removed flywheel, seal, and shims.
I measured my shims with my hf micrometer.
I am not confident in my abilities to get things to just right as I did notice slightly different measurements depending on if I measured on the inner diameter of the shim compared to the mid outer.
When I twisted everything down with the fine adjustment until it just spun and measurement didn’t change I figured I had to be close.
Came out to .34mm for all 3 shims. Or in inches that would be .0134 per shim.

With the seal removed and discarded and two shims installed, I put the flywheel back on with all 5 bolts with washer and torqued at 45ft. Lbs.

Much to my delight I was able to get .012 inches of movement with the two shims installed. I repeated this 5 times and got the same measurement each time.
I did this with push and pull with fingers only.

Took everything off and added the third shim.

Assemble everything exactly the same with all bolts torqued to 45ft. Lbs.

Pushed and pulled again and got .002 inches of travel with fingers.

I got some shims coming via 914 werke and hopeful that will do the trick and get me to .004”

Any additional input is as always appreciated.

Thanks again,

Gary

[Krieger]

Just curious if you were able to turn the engine over with those three shims? With two shims? Back in your original post you had an interesting interference issue with your oil pump that you say you fixed by pressing down the shaft. I remember in one of my past builds there was an oil pump that needed the tab that fits into the cam shaft trimmed down. Idk which aftermarket pump it was