Fire Suppression system installations Options

[BillJ]

Looking to update a race car with a 3-bay suppression system. I have done this many years ago but looking for suggestions on ideal routing for the lines and bottle location. Car has two seats (although rarely used right seat) so may impact routing and will probably do a dual nozzle in the cabin to make sure any riders are covered. Will want to spray both banks of carbs in the engine bay and one nozzle for the fuel cell space.

Anyone have some good pictures of routing they have done and where to locate bottle so it is out of the way? Pull locations appreciated too.

Thanks!
Bill

[brant]

is it going to be a halon system?

had a friend pass out in a 914/6 race car that caught fire... he pulled the handle on the system... and had a nozzle in the cockpit.

luckily the car was on grid...
some friends pulled him out the window while the car burned to the ground.

I'd be really careful about a nozzle in the cockpit... for halon.

I removed mine after my buddys incident.

[BillJ]

No to Halon. There is a newer gas that is not harmful to car or driver that I will be getting.

[Charles Freeborn]

I don't think Halon is legal anymore with most sanctioning bodies. Certainly not with any around here.
Sounds like you've got the right thought - 2 nozzles @ engine, 1 @ fuel cell and 1@ driver. Not really any room against firewall to mount the bottle, especially if there's a passenger seat, so the bottle will have to be in passenger footwell. I've seen the pull handle positioned so emergency workers can reach from outside the car through a window.

[BillJ]

Thanks Charles definitely erring on the side of overdoing it. Nobody has install pictures of their systems or suggestions on routing?

[brant]

I don't think Halon is legal anymore with most sanctioning bodies. Certainly not with any around here.
Sounds like you've got the right thought - 2 nozzles @ engine, 1 @ fuel cell and 1@ driver. Not really any room against firewall to mount the bottle, especially if there's a passenger seat, so the bottle will have to be in passenger footwell. I've seen the pull handle positioned so emergency workers can reach from outside the car through a window.

I think Halon is still legal.
I just checked SVRA rules and they have no problem with it

the replacement gas (Halotron?) is 50% as effective and requires twice the size of bottle to equal the same number of seconds of protection

its still available for sale and for refill
I do believe that manufacture of New Halon gas has been discontinued except for military use.....

so the price went up... but its still available last time I checked.

the foam type, water based systems have advantages in that they are easily refillable. But they are messy and subject to freeze damage too.

all of the types of extinguishers have their advantages and disadvantages
brant

[stownsen914]

Halon is illegial to manufacture and hard to get, but available as of several years ago anyway (I had a hand held refilled locally). I understand they recover and reuse Halon these days - and yes it's not cheap.

@Brant - can you share more about how the cockpit nozzle causes issues with Halon? It is because it evacuates O2 from the cockpit?

[brant]

Halon is illegial to manufacture and hard to get, but available as of several years ago anyway (I had a hand held refilled locally). I understand they recover and reuse Halon these days - and yes it's not cheap.

@Brant - can you share more about how the cockpit nozzle causes issues with Halon? It is because it evacuates O2 from the cockpit?

That’s how I was told it happened. He passed out before he could get out. Seems like holding your breath that long would be possible. Perhaps he was panicking and caught a breath full

He.... is Carl a friend. And carl burned his hand a bit.
They dragged carl out the window

And it was told by my race mechanic
And he modified
My car on the spot

[campbellcj]

I have an expired 4L AFFF Spa system now which was a straightforward install years ago. I'm about to replace it most likely with a Novec1230 system before my next track event (whenever that is). In the cockpit I have one nozzle aimed at the driver's crotch/footwell, one a little more central and higher-up, then one over the carbs and one over the fuel cell.

[FourBlades]

Is it still legal to mount the bottle inside the passenger area?

On my IMSA 914 it was mounted in the passenger footwell, and I would like to do it the same way they originally had it.

I think they 2 nozzles in the engine, at least 1 in the driver compartment and one over the fuel cell.

John

[GregAmy]

Is it still legal to mount the bottle inside the passenger area?

I don't recall that it ever wasn't.

What sanctioning body? No worries with SCCA, VRG, SCRA, HRG in the northeast.

I locate nozzles for where the most likely areas to give the driver the most amount of time to get the car stopped and get out. Fire supression systems are for that, not for saving the car. They have guys in bright suits and trucks for the latter.

(Edit: for example, I've seen systems with numerous nozzles in many places, all of which expire the bottle in a collective 1-3 seconds. Pointless. There should be fewer nozzles, most placed in area to protect the driver to give him/her time to egress; if capacity allows, place more to extinguish the source of fire. But there's so many possible areas of fire source that you can't cover all of them. Better to engineer and inspect your systems and focus on protecting the driver.)

[slivel]

My bottle was inside when I was still racing, but when I retired from racing and turned the car into a street hotrod I moved it.

[BillJ]

My bottle was inside when I was still racing, but when I retired from racing and turned the car into a street hotrod I moved it.

Thanks for the pics Steve that helps. I was thinking bottle placement in cabin to ensure driver is absolutely covered while engine and fuel gets second billing. Car means nothing if you are dead (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)

So single line up front to fuel cell, single dual direction nozzle for driver/passenger, and two nozzles with one for each of the carbs. Sound about right?

Thinking on advice to go aqueous foam as it sticks and prevents flareups. If the car catches on fire will be going through the whole thing anyway so cleanup is already going to happen. Thoughts?

[slivel]

My bottle was inside when I was still racing, but when I retired from racing and turned the car into a street hotrod I moved it.

Thanks for the pics Steve that helps. I was thinking bottle placement in cabin to ensure driver is absolutely covered while engine and fuel gets second billing. Car means nothing if you are dead (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)

So single line up front to fuel cell, single dual direction nozzle for driver/passenger, and two nozzles with one for each of the carbs. Sound about right?

Thinking on advice to go aqueous foam as it sticks and prevents flareups. If the car catches on fire will be going through the whole thing anyway so cleanup is already going to happen. Thoughts?

The aqueous film forming foam - AFFF we called it in the Navy will not disperse like a gaseous agent will, but I think the volume required will need a larger bottle or tank. I've read about the hazards of Halon and stories of people losing consciousness from breathing in the halon but in a race car with no side windows, I was not concerned. I figured that I could hold my breath for 30-60 seconds while I extricated myself from the car. In that time the agent would disperse. My car has three zones - fuel tank, cabin, and engine. I've seen demonstrations of halon on a raging fire and it is impressive although reflash is a concern.
Emergency egress is something that I practiced and timed so that I could increase my chances of survival in a fire. Of course a fire from a leak where you can stop and exit while deploying the fire system is one thing, trying to exit after a crash where you might be injured, on fire and not wheels on the ground is quite another.
Wise not to scrimp on safety equipment including helmet, gloves, shoes, suit etc.

[BillJ]

The car this is going into is run by an older gent and not as spry as he once was. My main concern is to ensure his safety when egress is hampered and prior to a safety crew arriving in the scenarios you wisely note above. What are your thoughts on the automatic deployment sensors that activate when temps at sensor reach 170F?

[slivel]

One more thought for those who are racing:
My checklist.

Stop the car
Turn off the engine
Deploy the fire system
Exit the car
Emergency electrical disconnect switch

Practice. Practice. Practice. Practice blindfolded as well. This is necessary if you actually can't see or if you are in an unusual attitude like upside down. I had multiple things to disconnect - harness, arm restraints, cool shirt hose, radio comm cord, window net, steering wheel (opt). I exited with HANS device on - some remove.

In 23 years of racing I caught fire only once and it was early in my racing days. It was in a 944 turbo that had an oil leak that sprayed on the exhaust manifold and caught fire. Had only a dry chemical extinguisher and required corner workers help and one or two other fie bottles from cars who stopped to help. Dry chem was a mess but the car was saved.

Another story: On the very first session of the very first track day on my newly built 914/6, my engine started running rough within a few hundred yards of taking the track. I shut it down and was towed into the pits. One of the fuel lines to the Weber carbs had popped off and dumped fuel all over the engine. It was a miracle that it did not catch fire. My engine builder was there and caught hell from me for using crimp on hose clamps that were not properly crimped.

[slivel]

The car this is going into is run by an older gent and not as spry as he once was. My main concern is to ensure his safety when egress is hampered and prior to a safety crew arriving in the scenarios you wisely note above. What are your thoughts on the automatic deployment sensors that activate when temps at sensor reach 170F?

I have no experience with these but I like the concept.

[BillJ]

Yeah fire is a massively scary possibility for sure. About 20 years ago was at The Glen and coming up the hill toward the Andretti straight I unleashed a smokescreen right out of spy hunter. Pulled off to the right side and waited for corner workers to get to me. In the interim i grabbed my hand held fire bottle and was facing the bulkhead anxiously looking for actual fire. Luckily no such bad luck but a scary few minutes.

At another point was at Summit Point and as part of my helper duties of tech was inspecting cars headed out for their first session. Very nice 911 rsr-look car was leaking something out the back. Told him to shut it down right away. Opened the lid and his fuel rail was leaking all over the right bank. That would have been bad...

You can never be overzealous on your safety equipment.

[jhynesrockmtn]

I just did this in my GT Tribute 6 vintage race car. I installed a Sparco AFFF system, 5.7 liter bottle in the forward part of the passenger compartment. The tech guy for our club who also works safety crew prefers manual cable actuation. The system I bought had two included. I installed one for me and one on the other side. Both reachable from the window as well. I plumbed a rear line with one nozzle below the engine tin and two above. I routed that line in the tunnel, and it exits under the tin. There is one nozzle on me under the dash and one at the fuel cell. Adding pics here is a pain but if you PM me I can send you some.

[BillJ]

PMd you