Gawd I Hate Points, Won't keep a tune Options

[bbrock]

Quick background. Engine is a rebuilt 2L with Elgin cam and Weber 40IDFs. I bought a Pertronix Ignitor 3 to avoid having to mess with points but I could only get it to work well with a NOS Bosch 050 distributor. It runs rough with a brand new Bosch clone SVDA and the OE dizzy. However, the engine runs best with the OE DVDA distributor so I'm running that with points.

The problem is that I've had to adjust dwell and timing 3 times in only 1,000 miles of driving. Each time the dwell creeps up until the engine starts spitting and farting and is a bit hard to start when warm. Readjusting the dwell and timing gets it running like a top again. So (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif) Only thing I can think is that the phenolic block on the points is wearing crazy fast. I lubed the cam and block with high temp slicone grease and I can feel it is still on there. Did I just get a shitty set of points?

[76-914]

Damned if I know but I am curious to know if the rotation on the dist is always in the same direction when resetting the timing e.g. counter clockwise? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Superhawk996]

Something is not right. We all ran points in the 80s and didn’t adjust them 3 times in 1000 miles.

Need to look at them. are they burning or pitting? Are they building up a cone on one contact and a crater on the other? Are the contacts meeting nice and square to one another?

Bad condenser will allow points to burn. Too hot of a coil without a ballast resistor will also cause problems.

Sorry you’re having to do this. I followed your dizzy saga and it never made sense why you can’t get a stable set up that the engine likes and or an electronic ignition that works well. The bottom line is I used to run points reliably and only messed with them every 6,000 miles or so.

Other less likely things: points screw tight enough or stripping out? How about distributor hold down clamp; is it clamping the distributor properly without slippage?

[930cabman]

My bet is that it's something simple, just tracking it down. I run points on all my sporting machines and have never had problems. Bushings in the housing? cheap points? not enough lube for the wear block?

[StarBear]

Yep; was happening to me too (1.8 EFI)..A little lock right on the points hold down screw and an extra tweak clockwise. No problem since then.

[bbrock]

Thanks all. I got to thinking about it, and the points I'm running are what shipped with the SVDA dizzy I bought. This is the same SVDA that Pertronix sells and Aircooled.Net recommends, but like I said, it is a Chinese clone of the old Bosch version that is NLA. The dizzy itself is decent quality but who knows the quality of the points they ship with? I think I'll start by ordering a good set of points.

But to answer your thoughts/questions:

The dizzy is locked down tight and not rotating. The only reason I have to readjust the timing is because the dwell creeps up over time (indicating the points gap is getting smaller). According to the Haynes manual, a 0.1mm change in the points gaps changes the timing by ~3 degrees which is about what I'm seeing. I've been trying to set the dwell as close to the 44 degree spec limit as possible, but it is a fiddly adjustment so usually 46-48 is the closest I can get. The direction I have to turn the dizzy after resetting the dwell depends on where the dwell is reset relative to when I set the timing the last time, but it has always only needed to be adjusted 2-3 degrees.

Checking that the screw on the points was locking down tight was one of the first things I checked and yes, it is locking down the base plate on the points very tightly. In fact, I'm always surprised how much I have to back off the screw before I can move the plate to adjust the dwell. I also checked for wear in the dizzy by revving the engine to see if the dwell angle changes with engine speed. It changes less than 1 deg through the full rpm range which is within spec.

I've also inspected the contacts and they still look pristine. No sign of wear at all. The condensor was purchased new from Pelican.

As I mentioned, I can feel the grease I applied on the cam if I wipe my finger across. I'm not sure how much lube is supposed to be on. I put a little on the block and a smear around the cams but figured if I over did it, it might fling off and foul the points.

As for the Ignitor 3, I've read of others on this forum and the Samba who have had a very similar experience. I haven't even tried to contact Pertronix because all reports I've read indicate they are assholes about admitting there is a problem. I don't need that aggravation. It is a mystery why it works well on the 050 but not the other two dizzies. It actually runs great on all three dizzies when they are cold, but as the two vacuum advance units heat up, the spark becomes erratic. I suspect there is a problem with the hall effect sensor. There is no adjustable air gap on these like on previous models. I've wondered if slotting the mounting hole so the unit could be pivoted closer to the distributor cam would help.

[Shivers]

Once, before I threw my points as far as I could, I bought a set of points and a condenser. I put them in and it did what you are experiencing with yours. The condenser was bad enough to keep welding the points together for a fraction of a second. Knocking the points out of adjustment. Best day in my car was that cold morning, after putting in electronic ignition. I turned the key and it fired off on the second rotation.

[bbrock]

Once, before I threw my points as far as I could, I bought a set of points and a condenser. I put them in and it did what you are experiencing with yours. The condenser was bad enough to keep welding the points together for a fraction of a second. Knocking the points out of adjustment. Best day in my car was that cold morning, after putting in electronic ignition. I turned the key and it fired off on the second rotation.

I'm with you. I'm probably going to convert the engine to Microsquirt with a modern coil pack over the winter. I hated points back when they were standard on most cars and thought I had solved that with the Pertronix. After 1,600 miles, I'm ready to ditch the carbs too. In the mean time, I'm hoping to enjoy a couple months of premium driving weather so will suffer through with points until the snow flies.

[Superhawk996]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hissyfit.gif)

No wonder you hate points. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Honestly, it seems like you have the bases covered. Get your hands on a set of Bosch points.

Microsquirt will be a huge upgrade due to the altitude and weather fluctuations. My intent with the 2.4L six is to go directly to coil on plug. FI far superior.

I wasn't convinced about the merits of FI vs. serviceability until I had my Miata. I was traveling to Idaho to do some skiing in January. Woke up on -20F South Dakota morning 1/2 expecting to call for a jump start. Fired right up in about 2 revolutions of the engine. Instantly became a believer.

[Root_Werks]

Good quality points and condenser make a big difference. Still running points in one of our Bugs. Only put a few thousand miles a year on the Bug, but can't remember the last time I adjusted the points. Shouldn't need to.

[Steve]

I had good luck with the pertronics igniter and never looked back. I kept a pair of points in the glove box, but never needed them.

[Porschef]

Brent, I bit the bullet and sprung for a 123 distributor; it’s been the best improvement for me yet. Programmable, set it and fo’get it.

But if’n you’re gonna go microsquirt I suppose it’s a moot point. Hope you get it figured (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[914werke]

I had good luck with the pertronix igniter and never looked back. I kept a pair of points in the glove box, but never needed them.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Lifes too short. Id dump the points & swap in a electronic replacement.
Pertronix is the defcto but there are others. Not a pertonix shill but Ive had a 1847v in the LE for over a decade w/no issues.
The II version eliminates the Key on issue & the III version adds to that improvement w/multi-spark & programable rev limit.

[930cabman]

Good quality points and condenser make a big difference. Still running points in one of our Bugs. Only put a few thousand miles a year on the Bug, but can't remember the last time I adjusted the points. Shouldn't need to.

Same thing with my '64 356SC, a few years ago I pulled the points and gave them a file job on the roadside. Still running great

[bbrock]

As I said in the first post, I have a Pertronix III. It does not work on two of three dizzies I've tried it on. If anyone is successfully running a Pertronix Ignitor III on an SVDA or DVDA dizzy, I'd like to hear about it. Oh yes, I also am running the Pertronix plug wires. IMO, the Ignitor III is simply not ready for prime time. Too many people reporting the same results I had.

Right now I'd just like a solution that will hold the tune for a couple more months of driving. Then I'll dig into the microsquirt which will include installing a modern coil pack. One option is to just switch back to the 050 with Pertronix in it. That works well enough but doesn't provide the silky smooth acceleration I'm getting with the properly tuned OE distributor. The other is to try another set of points and hope they behave.

[sixnotfour]

My Motto ...Type 4 Sale.. Sorry about electric Issues.. Happy Labor Day

[Superhawk996]

Maybe a II is for you.

https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/PELP...AiABEgLkq_D_BwE

[bbrock]

Maybe a II is for you.

https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/PELP...AiABEgLkq_D_BwE

Thought about it, but doesn't make sense to spend that kind of coin for 2 months of driving.

[914werke]

I just happened to speak to a Pertronix rep this last week when trying to make a purchase decision on a 1.8L dizzy application. I got lucky to speak to surprisingly knowledgeable tech & a ACVW owner.
His comments were interesting.
He said in our applications (ACVW in general & T4 specifically) for 90% of the owners he'd never recommend the purchase any of the III products.
The II offerings (points replacement & dizzy's) were the best option.

[Superhawk996]

He said in our applications (ACVW in general & T4 specifically) for 90% of the owners he'd never recommend the purchase any of the III products.

@914werke

What was the rationale? Inquiring minds want to know.

I'd bet due to multi-spark feature which really isn't going to work well with a standard coil but I'm sort of quessing.