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> Question to the braintrust for motor building
Mark Henry
post Dec 1 2021, 02:43 PM
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QUOTE(Mikey914 @ Dec 1 2021, 03:19 PM) *

Thanks all,
This was the kind of feedback O was looking for. Definitely a few things to think on. We were looking at makung the biral cylinders here and had an idea for a twist on them that could improve cooling. I get that voids would be an issue. My idea was to utilize a process that we could replicate, and if the results were consistent, we would only have to to QC on a few in each batch.

The 78mm crank is a good point.

I think we can develop a pretty solid motor. The testing will be the most fun.

Mark

My advice...don't. There's already too many players in that market.

Stick with your niche, if you need to expand cover the rubber/plastic (etc) parts for 356 and 911, venture into other cars, etc.
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NARP74
post Dec 1 2021, 05:04 PM
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QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Dec 1 2021, 01:43 PM) *

QUOTE(Mikey914 @ Dec 1 2021, 03:19 PM) *

Thanks all,
This was the kind of feedback O was looking for. Definitely a few things to think on. We were looking at making the biral cylinders here and had an idea for a twist on them that could improve cooling. I get that voids would be an issue. My idea was to utilize a process that we could replicate, and if the results were consistent, we would only have to to QC on a few in each batch.

The 78mm crank is a good point.

I think we can develop a pretty solid motor. The testing will be the most fun.

Mark

My advice...don't. There's already too many players in that market.

Stick with your niche, if you need to expand cover the rubber/plastic (etc) parts for 356 and 911, venture into other cars, etc.


New to the game here; so who are all of these players? I was just looking for them a while ago, needing a new or rebuilt engine. I found Raby, too expensive for me. I found some builders that went out of business. I found some builders scattered around the country but not convenient for shipping and expensive. I found a race shop several hours west of me, very expensive. I found one local builder that does a lot of VW stuff, he is booked out 6 to 9 months. And that has been the end of my work.

I am sure I have missed some. But from my perspective I would say go for it!
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barnfind9141972
post Dec 1 2021, 09:39 PM
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QUOTE(NARP74 @ Dec 1 2021, 03:04 PM) *

QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Dec 1 2021, 01:43 PM) *

QUOTE(Mikey914 @ Dec 1 2021, 03:19 PM) *

Thanks all,
This was the kind of feedback O was looking for. Definitely a few things to think on. We were looking at making the biral cylinders here and had an idea for a twist on them that could improve cooling. I get that voids would be an issue. My idea was to utilize a process that we could replicate, and if the results were consistent, we would only have to to QC on a few in each batch.

The 78mm crank is a good point.

I think we can develop a pretty solid motor. The testing will be the most fun.

Mark

My advice...don't. There's already too many players in that market.

Stick with your niche, if you need to expand cover the rubber/plastic (etc) parts for 356 and 911, venture into other cars, etc.


New to the game here; so who are all of these players? I was just looking for them a while ago, needing a new or rebuilt engine. I found Raby, too expensive for me. I found some builders that went out of business. I found some builders scattered around the country but not convenient for shipping and expensive. I found a race shop several hours west of me, very expensive. I found one local builder that does a lot of VW stuff, he is booked out 6 to 9 months. And that has been the end of my work.

I am sure I have missed some. But from my perspective I would say go for it!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Everyone claims there’s tons of people who can take these jobs on until you look for them and everyone is too busy, too expensive, or ready to retire. The cars aren’t going away but the people who help keep them on the road on the business side seem to be
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914_teener
post Dec 1 2021, 09:48 PM
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QUOTE(barnfind9141972 @ Dec 1 2021, 07:39 PM) *

QUOTE(NARP74 @ Dec 1 2021, 03:04 PM) *

QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Dec 1 2021, 01:43 PM) *

QUOTE(Mikey914 @ Dec 1 2021, 03:19 PM) *

Thanks all,
This was the kind of feedback O was looking for. Definitely a few things to think on. We were looking at making the biral cylinders here and had an idea for a twist on them that could improve cooling. I get that voids would be an issue. My idea was to utilize a process that we could replicate, and if the results were consistent, we would only have to to QC on a few in each batch.

The 78mm crank is a good point.

I think we can develop a pretty solid motor. The testing will be the most fun.

Mark

My advice...don't. There's already too many players in that market.

Stick with your niche, if you need to expand cover the rubber/plastic (etc) parts for 356 and 911, venture into other cars, etc.


New to the game here; so who are all of these players? I was just looking for them a while ago, needing a new or rebuilt engine. I found Raby, too expensive for me. I found some builders that went out of business. I found some builders scattered around the country but not convenient for shipping and expensive. I found a race shop several hours west of me, very expensive. I found one local builder that does a lot of VW stuff, he is booked out 6 to 9 months. And that has been the end of my work.

I am sure I have missed some. But from my perspective I would say go for it!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Everyone claims there’s tons of people who can take these jobs on until you look for them and everyone is too busy, too expensive, or ready to retire. The cars aren’t going away but the people who help keep them on the road on the business side seem to be



I don't agree with Mark. I don't believe there are "too many people" .

What I believe is that things aren't like they were even 5 years ago. So to believe you can go down to your "local VW" shop and get a valve job for your 50 year old heads...have been gone for some time and since there is now a scarcity of people that are willing to take on that...the people that will, can't get paid what it is worth because it is "too expensive".

Try finding a really good used car now...strange times and they are a changing. I say go for it Mark...put something together....but good work and good engines have never been cheap.

That's the original purpose of this community to share experiences and experiment on your own and share them.....not as a social network to find who does work cheap.

Go for it.
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mepstein
post Dec 1 2021, 09:57 PM
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QUOTE(barnfind9141972 @ Dec 1 2021, 10:39 PM) *

QUOTE(NARP74 @ Dec 1 2021, 03:04 PM) *

QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Dec 1 2021, 01:43 PM) *

QUOTE(Mikey914 @ Dec 1 2021, 03:19 PM) *

Thanks all,
This was the kind of feedback O was looking for. Definitely a few things to think on. We were looking at making the biral cylinders here and had an idea for a twist on them that could improve cooling. I get that voids would be an issue. My idea was to utilize a process that we could replicate, and if the results were consistent, we would only have to to QC on a few in each batch.

The 78mm crank is a good point.

I think we can develop a pretty solid motor. The testing will be the most fun.

Mark

My advice...don't. There's already too many players in that market.

Stick with your niche, if you need to expand cover the rubber/plastic (etc) parts for 356 and 911, venture into other cars, etc.


New to the game here; so who are all of these players? I was just looking for them a while ago, needing a new or rebuilt engine. I found Raby, too expensive for me. I found some builders that went out of business. I found some builders scattered around the country but not convenient for shipping and expensive. I found a race shop several hours west of me, very expensive. I found one local builder that does a lot of VW stuff, he is booked out 6 to 9 months. And that has been the end of my work.

I am sure I have missed some. But from my perspective I would say go for it!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Everyone claims there’s tons of people who can take these jobs on until you look for them and everyone is too busy, too expensive, or ready to retire. The cars aren’t going away but the people who help keep them on the road on the business side seem to be

There are probably reasons why the people go away. It's easy to love these cars but hard to make money on them. Money isn't everything, unless you are running a business and then it's pretty important. I bet there was very little profit from the $5K engine program so the builders moved on. Engine building, like all the other restoration projects, takes a lot more time than people realize. Not just the actual building but the initial customer consultations, parts purchase, engine tear down and cleaning, all the steps needed to get to the build, tuning and then the final steps to get the engine to the customer. It's a lot.
Then if the builder makes one mistake or uses a defective part, it can cost them thousands in time and money to make it good.
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914werke
post Dec 1 2021, 10:47 PM
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QUOTE(mepstein @ Dec 1 2021, 07:57 PM) *
It's easy to love these cars but hard to make money on them.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hissyfit.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
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wonkipop
post Dec 2 2021, 01:36 AM
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actually thats true about the last 5 years.

its happening here too.
you want your 356 heads machined?
sorry. the good guy just closed. and he did. we just found that out here.
covid might have prompted something but it was going to happen?

it needs to get passed on generationally?

it will shrink for sure, the market.
but you are going to need someone or a few someone's who stay in the game.

so @Mikey914 idea maybe is not so wrong.

but you are going to have to be good at it.
and i guess people are going to have to pay?.......

thats what i see ahead.

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Mikey914
post Dec 2 2021, 03:05 AM
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Well, I know for sure this is a long term project. It's not something I'm gonna get rich off of, nor do I really want it to be a cash cow. I'm interested to see what I can do here and play with some "improvements" I can make, then test them.

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Superhawk996
post Dec 2 2021, 07:02 AM
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QUOTE(914_teener @ Dec 1 2021, 10:48 PM) *


What I believe is that things aren't like they were even 5 years ago. So to believe you can go down to your "local VW" shop and get a valve job for your 50 year old heads...have been gone for some time and since there is now a scarcity of people that are willing to take on that...the people that will, can't get paid what it is worth because it is "too expensive".



(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Most "Automotive Technicians" are no longer mechanics and certainly not ones that have the tools or skill to do a valve job from scratch. Far too many are trained to simply depend on OBD dignostics and swap parts.

I know that is a unfair stereotype and there are still good mechanics out there. I don't mean to offend them. Even so, the "Techs" are generally better trained on how to diagnose and repair CAN related module and electrical problems than the historical mechanics so it really is a tradeoff that is a result of what they work on most and where they make their money.

For what it's worth, I thought Mark was referring more to the creation of big bore Biral cylinders and the associated manufacturing pitfalls of Biral vs. the tech that went into developing Nickies. Porsche didn't stay with Biral for long . . . there were good reasons for that.


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Superhawk996
post Dec 2 2021, 07:06 AM
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QUOTE(mepstein @ Dec 1 2021, 10:57 PM) *


There are probably reasons why the people go away.


You forgot dealing with crazy customers. You know the kind.

They guy that has you rebuild an engine. Proceeds to miss a shift, over rev's it, and grenades it. Then sues the engine builder.


Yeah -- it happens. Sad state of affairs. But, explains why it is getting so hard to find a reliable engine builder.

My hat goes off the Mark and any of the others out there still making a go of it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/first.gif)
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Shivers
post Dec 2 2021, 08:24 AM
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Just a thought from a guy that has to do his own work, to own this car. My last engine build I had parts from OC to Palm Springs being machined or made all together. Getting the (correct 1 over) bearing, gaskets/seals, shims (new 13 lb fw) You know how it is. But I was hunting the best part for the best price, that I could afford. I've seen engine build kits, gaaads. Just a thought
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Mark Henry
post Dec 2 2021, 08:42 AM
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QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Dec 2 2021, 08:02 AM) *

QUOTE(914_teener @ Dec 1 2021, 10:48 PM) *


What I believe is that things aren't like they were even 5 years ago. So to believe you can go down to your "local VW" shop and get a valve job for your 50 year old heads...have been gone for some time and since there is now a scarcity of people that are willing to take on that...the people that will, can't get paid what it is worth because it is "too expensive".



For what it's worth, I thought Mark was referring more to the creation of big bore Biral cylinders and the associated manufacturing pitfalls of Biral vs. the tech that went into developing Nickies. Porsche didn't stay with Biral for long . . . there were good reasons for that.


Yes I was talking about the biral's, I remember well when Charles (LN) made a go of them and the cost was too great to make an acceptable product to their standards. They had the product and all the manufacturing bugs worked out and they still decided to stop making them.

As far as building engines go... well have at it, good luck.
You might have some success if you're building a single stock engine line, but once into performance every customer has different needs and wants and no single engine line will satisfy every customer. I've personally never had much luck selling turnkey engines built on spec. other than stock engines.
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rhodyguy
post Dec 2 2021, 08:54 AM
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Budget in brand NEW heads. The case work. Rotating assembly balance. Headers. A trans to handle the power. New CVs to handle the power. New flywheel and clutch package. It adds up quickly.
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mepstein
post Dec 2 2021, 09:23 AM
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QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Dec 2 2021, 08:06 AM) *

QUOTE(mepstein @ Dec 1 2021, 10:57 PM) *


There are probably reasons why the people go away.


You forgot dealing with crazy customers. You know the kind.

They guy that has you rebuild an engine. Proceeds to miss a shift, over rev's it, and grenades it. Then sues the engine builder.


Yeah -- it happens. Sad state of affairs. But, explains why it is getting so hard to find a reliable engine builder.

My hat goes off the Mark and any of the others out there still making a go of it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/first.gif)

In the 911 world, it’s very common that owners with new engines over rev them, bend valves and then want the engine warrantied. Huge headache for everyone involved.
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Mark Henry
post Dec 2 2021, 09:45 AM
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QUOTE(mepstein @ Dec 2 2021, 10:23 AM) *

QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Dec 2 2021, 08:06 AM) *

QUOTE(mepstein @ Dec 1 2021, 10:57 PM) *


There are probably reasons why the people go away.


You forgot dealing with crazy customers. You know the kind.

They guy that has you rebuild an engine. Proceeds to miss a shift, over rev's it, and grenades it. Then sues the engine builder.


Yeah -- it happens. Sad state of affairs. But, explains why it is getting so hard to find a reliable engine builder.

My hat goes off the Mark and any of the others out there still making a go of it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/first.gif)

In the 911 world, it’s very common that owners with new engines over rev them, bend valves and then want the engine warrantied. Huge headache for everyone involved.


Years ago I had a kit 356 customer who wanted a kick ass engine, I built him a 2.7 nickies engine at least 180hp. I had it perfect sorted, quite the blast in a 1600-1700lbs car.

First he wasn't happy with the power, he implied he was expecting LS3 level power, even though I clearly told him a T4 will never have the power of a modern engine. I had also offered different engines like a subi, etc before the build.

Then even though he was told not to rev beyond 6500rpm he reved it so high he drove one valve guide into the port, fuched the head. He argued up and down that he did nothing wrong and then that a balanced engine should be able to go to 8K. In the end I wouldn't cover it, but I did repair it and as expected he was not a happy customer.
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930cabman
post Dec 2 2021, 10:40 AM
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Not every customer is a good customer.

I always interview a potential customer and often tell them "we are too busy" or just don't call them back. I have been known to fire customers because they are too much of a PITA
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NARP74
post Dec 2 2021, 12:06 PM
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QUOTE(Mikey914 @ Dec 2 2021, 02:05 AM) *

Well, I know for sure this is a long term project. It's not something I'm gonna get rich off of, nor do I really want it to be a cash cow. I'm interested to see what I can do here and play with some "improvements" I can make, then test them.

If you need some high altitude testing, +6000 ft, let me know!
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NARP74
post Dec 3 2021, 06:04 PM
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Watched a TV show about Porsche bore score. They wound up going to this company in England for engine work. They are doing some cool tech on newer engines with liners and coatings for heat and wear issues. Might be worth checking out to see what they have.

https://hartech.org/

Cheers
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