What oil type for a type IV?, Synthetic or Dino? Options

[cnavarro]

Use a good filter - i.e. a k&n gold or even better, the mobil 1 branded filter. At the bare minimum, use a good oe mahle or mann. Without good filtration, might as well be running dollar store oil.

[sww914]

I started using synthetic years ago after I had to help clean the track twice, once dino oil and once synth. The Mobil1 was way more slippery than the dino oil was, we were all slipping around trying to sweep the track. I figure if it's that slick on dirty asphalt, imagine what it can do for the inside of your engine.
I won't run synth until after break in, on one engine the rings never seated when I started out with Mobil1, but they seated right away with the super cheap stuff (non detergent) at first and then Castrol for the rest of the break in.
Since I've been running Mobil1 I haven't blown up an engine.

BTW I knew 3 guys who were running Kendall in their racecars and all 3 of them grenaded engines regularly. There's no proof that it was the oil, but it left a bad taste in my mouth.

[Dave_Darling]

If you like the old-school Kendall, the new stuff is not it. You can get the old green stuff under the Brad-Penn/Penn-Grade label - Racing 20w50. I think it's one of the best dino oils money can buy.

The old Kendall used to be the only stuff recommended by two local Porsche pros that I really trust. Then Kendall went and reformulated, and I've still got a few quarts of their non-green stuff left... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Glad to hear that it's available again under a different name! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That was pretty good stuff. But I think I'll stick with Rotella T (non-synthetic) for my 914, now.

--DD

[Jake Raby]

The Brad Penn IS the OLD Kendall..

This is proven.

Charles and I have worked together for 18months on this oil stuff and he has put a ton of time into research while I have tested and provided post analysis samples as well as data for the work..

Soon we'll be topping the tests off with power tests from the new lab and more samples and data acquisition at various oil temperatures. In the new lab I have the capability to set an oil temperature and MAINTAIN that temperature despite load, RPM, ambient conditions and etc. I can set one temp and the system keeps the oil that temp! I integrated this primarily to provide an equal testing field for all engines and changes without the temp of the oil playinga rold in our findings, creatibg a variable.

[toon1]

I run R.P. in both my vehichles, per Jake.

good stuff, not cheap.

[Coy]

CNavarro,

Your work was very informative. I think I learned a lot by reading it. Next oil change I plan to switch to Castrol High Mileage 15/50 & Mobile 1 filter; I currently run Castrol SAE 30 with Napa gold filter, I guess just because that's what the previous owner used to run in it before I bought it.

My question is about change intervals. I usually change my oil every 3-4 months, and very rarely reach 3000 miles. I don't drive anything very often, because I work at home and have a family. When I go someplace I usually have to take 4 seats, and if the weather's good, I try to find time to ride a couple of motorcycles too (everything needs to get run as often as possible). According to your material it's not actually good to change oil too often, but doesn't breakdown occur due to chemicals left behind from combustion in the engine regardless of mileage? Is it Okay to wait until you reach 3000 miles even if it takes 4-6 months?

Thanks for the information so-far!

[cnavarro]

I would continue to change the oil every 3 months, if using a non-synthetic, like Castrol GTX High Mileage 20w50 - it's the moisture in the engine that breaks down the oil more than anything. On my not-so-daily driver I barely put 2,000 mi in 3 months on it because of very short drives, and change it using the manufacturer specified non-syn every 3 months regardless.

My reference to changing the oils too much goes to the Porsche 356 guys, who change their oil every 1000 mi. Alternatively, I have heard of people who drive thousands of miles a week. They change their oil every 3,000 mi, which might only be a week or a week and a half. They would be better running a better filter and better oil, and going for longer drain intervals.

It all has to do with your driving habits. If all you do is short drives and never get the oil hot >210F for a prolonged period of time, sludge forms and moisture wreaks havoc on the oil. That's why I recommend the 3 month time frame. But if you don't drive it often, but when you do, you get it nice and hot and drive it for an extended period of time (no white/yellow gunk on the oil filler cap), I'd say you are safe doing a 6 month drain interval. This does not include winter months, just change it before bringing it out of hibernation.

[sww914]

My reference to changing the oils too much goes to the Porsche 356 guys, who change their oil every 1000 mi. Alternatively, I have heard of people who drive thousands of miles a week. They change their oil every 3,000 mi, which might only be a week or a week and a half. They would be better running a better filter and better oil, and going for longer drain intervals.

Off Topic, but I did an engine swap in my friend's '94 toyota pickup in '04. It was a newspaper delivery vehicle that drove halfway across the state and back 7 days a week. They changed the oil every week. The engine that I removed had 749,000 miles on it in a 10 year old truck. This is not a second-hand story. I drove the truck into the shop, it ran fine but it wouldn't pass smog anymore. I drained the oil, the started it up with no oil and floored it, left it floored for 2 minutes but it wouldn't blow up! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)
I need to ask what kind of oil they used.

[Borderline]

I remember Jake recommending Royal Purple 20w-50. LN Engineering had a pretty good article...sorry can't find the link. I always thought that with time the oils were getting better...not necessarily. They have changed formulations to help improve emissions. To do this they have reduced there wear fighting chemicals. If you don't have a catalityc converter try running a diesel oil! When I picked up my cam, Dima Elgin (local cam grinder) recommended Delo 400, 15w-40. The diesel oils still have the good stuff! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

[cnavarro]

Regarding the toyota, my grandfather had I think it was an 84 toyota pickup - needed a new tranny a like 350,000 and new engine at 450,000 - he drove that thing like a race car (he later had a miata before passing away). Damn fastest 70 yo I knew. Toyotas were built to last. I have a friend whose family owns lexuses (lexi?) and they had one of the first ls's and they hadn't changed the oil in it since it was new (had over 100,000 mi on it when I met him). Family still has it many, many thousands of miles later.

[sww914]

Ok, off topic again, but the same guy had a 70 something Ford Maverick. He didn't change the oil for 11 years. He didn't drive a lot, but still 100-150 miles a week. He took an auto repair class at the community college and decided to do his first oil change. He pulled the drain plug and a couple of minutes a BLOP of oil came out, it looked like Henry's roof repair tar.
It took 3 days for the stuff to drip out.

The seat cover wore out and he put a blanket over the bare springs, but eventually it wore through so he put another over the first, and so on, until the space between the floor and the springs was filled with enough blanket scraps that it would support the upper layers and the springs wouldn't wear through the blankets anymore.

[pfierb]

This from this months issue of Sports car market magazine article by Gary Anderson. Modern oils don't cut it

Many modern oils are no longer suitable for old cars.Automotive technology and environmental concerns have caused changes in the way oils are now formulated,and even old brands of oil are very different from what they were when our cars were new.
To improve mileage and increase the life span of catalytic converters many of the old additives have been removed,especially those designed to protect the surfaces of the cams and flat-surface tappets in old engines.
In particular the additive Zinc-Dialkyl-dithiophosphate (ZDDP) has gone, especially from lower-weight oils recommended for most modern cars.In conjunction with molybdenum,ZDDP maintains surfaces constantly rubbing against one another,but it isn't necessary in a modern roller rocker,variable-valve timing engine.
In a recent thread on several vintage racing and Healey online bulletin boards,the consensus was that we should seek out the few oils formulated for older cars that still have ZDDP.
Look for oils with ZDDP
These include Castrol GTX or High Mileage 20w50,Valvoline VR1 20w50 and boutique oils such as Royal Purple,Redline,Torco,Penrite or Amsoil in both 15w40 or 20w50 viscosities.Another good alternative is a diesel engine oil designed for vehicles without catalytic converters,such as Chevron Delo or Shell Rotella T, in a 15w40 or 20w50 weight.
The article goes on but the above I think is the most important part.

Paul F.

[davep]

To add to what Paul is saying, I found this today on a Historic Racing list:

Oil is Killing our Cars

By
Keith Ansell, President
Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.
www.ForeignPartsPositively.com
360-882-3596


Oil is Killing our cars Part I



About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding and high pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals in supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.

A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft re-grinder and asked how this could happen. They were well aware of this problem as they were starting to have many failures of this type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant, at assembly, was about the only thing that could create this type of problem. My customer has assembled many engines and had lubricated the camshaft properly and followed correct break in procedures.



This got me on the phone to Delta Camshaft, one of our major suppliers. Then the bad news came out: It’s today’s “modern” API (American Petroleum Industry) approved oils that are killing our engines.



Next call: To another major camshaft supplier, both stock and performance (Crane). They now have an additive for whatever oil you are using during break-in so that the camshaft and lifters won’t fail in an unreasonably short period of time. They also suggest using a diesel rated oil on flat tappet engines.



Next call: To a racing oil manufacturer that we use for the race cars (Redline). Their response: “We are well aware of the problem and we still use the correct amounts of those additives in our products”. They continued to tell me they are not producing API approved oils so they don’t have to test and comply. Their oils were NOT the “new, improved and approved” ones that destroy flat tappet engines! “We just build the best lubricants possible”. Sounds stupid, doesn’t it, New-Approved but inferior products, but it seems to be true for our cars.



To top this off: Our representative from a major supplier of performance and street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to “warn us” of the problem of the NEW oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call that the representative was making only because of this problem to warn their engine builders! “The reduction of the zinc, manganese and phosphates are causing very early destruction of cams and followers”. They are recommending that, for now at least, there must be a proper oil additive put in the first oil used on new engines, beyond the liberal use of molydisulfide assembly lube. They have been told that the first oil is the time the additives are needed but remain skeptical that the first change is all that is necessary. Their statement: Use diesel rated oils such as Delo or Rotella that are usually available at auto stores and gas stations.

This problem is BIG! American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA) Bulletin #TB2333 directly addresses this problem. I had a short discussion with their engineer and he agreed with all that I had been finding.



Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major bearing and component manufacturer. First surprise was that he restored older British Motor bikes. The second surprise was that he was “VERY” aware of this problem because many of the old bikes had rectangular tappets that couldn’t rotate and are having a very large problem with the new oils. He has written an article for the British Bike community that verify all the “bad news” we have been finding.



Comp Cams put out “#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat Tappet Camshafts”. They have both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The telling sentence in the bulletin was “While this additive was originally developed specifically for break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability benefits of its long term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by replacing some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been required to remove from the off the–shelf oil”.



Next question: Now what do we do?



From the camshaft re-grinders (DeltaCam): “Use oils rated for diesel use”, Delo (Standard Oil product) was named. About the same price as other quality petroleum based oils. They are not API formulated and have the zinc dithiophosphate we need in weights we are familiar with. From the camshaft manufacturer (Crane): “use our additive” for at least the first 500 miles.



From General Motors (Chevrolet): add EOS, their oil fortifier, to your oil, it’s only about $12.00 for each oil change for an 8 ounce can (This problem seems to be something GM has known about for some time!).



From Redline Oil: Use our street formulated synthetics. They have what we need!



From our major oil distributor: Distributing Castro, Redline, Valvoline and Industrial oils: “After over a week of contacts we have verified that the major oil companies are aware of the problem”. “The representatives of the oil companies today are only aware of marketing programs and have no knowledge of formulation”. The only major oil companies they were aware of for doing anything to address this are Valvoline that is offering an “Off Road 20W-50” and Redline.



From Castrol: We are beginning to see a pattern emerging on older cars. It may be advantageous to use a non-approved lubricant, such as oils that are Diesel rated, 4 Cycle Motorcycle oils and other specified diesel oils.



Last question: So what are we at Foreign Parts Positively going to do? After much research we are switching to Redline Street rated oils and stocking the Castrol products that are diesel rated. Castrol, owned by British Petroleum, is now just a brand name. This is a difficult decision as we have been a dealer and great believer in all Castrol Products for over 40 years. We have been using Castrol Syntech oil in new engines for about 3 years so the cost difference in changing to Redline is minimal. The actual cost in operation is also less as the additive package in Redline makes a 1-year or up to 18,000 mile change recommended! Yes, it is a long change interval but with lowered sulfur levels and the elimination of lead and many other chemicals in the fuels there are less contaminants in our oil from the fuel, which is the major contributor to oil degradation. We will continue to offer the Castrol products but will now only stock the suggested diesel oils that they produce.



Too many things are starting to show up on this subject and it has cost us money and time. Be aware that “New and Improved”, or even products we have been using for many years, are destroying our cars as it isn’t the same stuff we were getting even a year ago.



For the cars that use “engine oil” in their gearboxes this may even pose a problem as these additives that have been removed could be very critical in gear wear. We will be using oil specifically formulated for Manual Gearboxes with Brass Synchronizers. The only oils we are aware of that fit the criteria are from General Motors and Redline.



If you have any additional input let us know. We need to let every flat tappet engine owner, i.e.: every British Car owner know that things are changing and we MUST meet the challenge.



Oil is Killing our cars Part II



Last month’s report on this subject is turning out to be just the tip of the iceberg! Many publications have had this subject of zinc-dialkyl-dithiophosphate (ZDDP) covered in varying depths over the last few months. Some publications have even had conflicting stories when you compare one month’s article with their next month’s article! They are all ending up supporting our report.



I have had the good fortune to have the ear of quite a few leaders in the industry including some wonderful input from Castrol. We have been very reluctant to “dump” Castrol, as it has been such a great supporter of our cars and industry over the years. Castrol hasn’t really abandoned our cars, just shifted to a more mass marketing mode. Many Castrol products are not appropriate for our cars today, some still are.



Now for the latest report:



#1 Castrol GTX 20W-50 is still good for our cars after break-in! 10W-40, 10W-30 and other grades are NOT good. Absolute NOT GOOD for any oil (Any Brand) that is marked “Energy Conserving” in the API “Donut” on the bottle, these oils are so low with ZDDP or other additives that they will destroy our cams. Virtually all “Diesel” rated oils are acceptable.



#2 Castrol HD 30 is a very good oil for break-in of new motors. This oil has one of the largest concentrations of ZDDP and Moly to conserve our cams and tappets.



#3 Only an unusual Castrol Syntec 20W-50 approaches the levels of protection we need when we look to the better synthetic lubricants. We are attempting to get this oil but will be using Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 as these are lighter weights for better performance, flow volume, less drag and has the additive package we need.



#4 The trend today is to lighter weight oils to decrease drag, which increases mileage. Most of these seem to be the “Energy Conservation” oils that we cannot use.



#5 Redline oil and others are suggesting a 3,000-mile break-in for new engines! Proper seating of rings, with today’s lubricants is taking that long to properly seal. Shifting to synthetics before that time will just burn a lot of oil and not run as well as hoped.



#6 The “Energy Conservation“ trend was first lead by automakers to increase mileage numbers and secondly because the ZDDP and other chemicals degrade the catalytic converter after extended miles, increasing pollution. We don’t have catalytic converters and the mileage gains are not that significant for most of us.



For you science buffs: ZDDP is a single polar molecule that is attracted to Iron based metals. The one polar end tends to “Stand” the molecule up on the metal surface that it is bonded to by heat and friction. This forms a sacrificial layer to protect the base metal of the cam and tappet from contacting each other. Only at very high pressures on a flat tappet cam is this necessary because the oil is squeezed/wiped from the surface. This high pressure is also present on the gudgeon pin (wrist pin) in diesel engines, therefore the need for ZDDP in diesel engines.

Second part of the equation is Molybdenum disulfide (Moly). The moly bonds to the zinc adding an additional, very slippery, sacrificial layer to the metal. I found out that too much of the moly will create problems; lack of this material reduces the effectiveness of the ZDDP. The percentage, by weight is from .01 to .02%, not much, but necessary.



Latest conclusions: Running our older, broken in engines on Castrol 20W-50 GTX is ok. Break in a new engine for 3,000 miles on HD 30 Castrol.

New engines (after break-in) and fairly low mileage engines will do best with the Redline 10W- 40 or 10W-30 synthetic.

[Bleyseng]

I like the Mobil One 15-50 AC motocycle oil running in my 914. Oil temps dropped on really hot days to 220-230F from 240F when using Castol GTX 20-50. I am getting a slight leak from the front seal thou. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[sww914]

From Mobil1's website, FAQ

Why are you reintroducing Mobil 1 15W-50? Have there been any changes to the formulation, or is it identical to the previous product?
Mobil 1 15W-50 is being reintroduced based on popular demand. Mobil 1 15W-50 provides higher viscosity, designed to provide extra protection for performance vehicles and vehicles that operate in severe service, such as towing, hauling and racing. Additionally, Mobil 1 15W-50 contains higher levels of anti-wear (ZDDP or Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate) that may be required for certain racing applications and camshaft designs. This is a new Mobil 1 15W-50 formulation and is not the same as the product that was marketed a few years ago. TOO BAD IT"S TOO THICK FOR ME!

[cnavarro]

I have tested every formulation from about 1996 forward - they all have the same additive levels. If there were any changes, there's nothing that shows up on an oil analysis. TBN and viscosities also remained consistent.

15w50 does have more Zn and P than the 0w40, but both are still significantly higher than most of the oils we tested.

I do have one beef with the "Oil is killing our cars" copy and paste - they state that castrol syntec 20w50 provides sufficient protection. First, they don't have a 20w50 - it's a 5w50, and it had one of the lowest TBN's as well as the lowest Zn and P levels of any of the oils I tested. I would say to use Castrol GTX 20w50 over Castrol Syntec any day.

I also should point out that all the diesel oils have been reformulated with the new CJ-4 standard and will have reduced levels of phosphorus, below that even of what Mobil 1 0w40 has.

[RoninEclipse2G]

I also should point out that all the diesel oils have been reformulated with the new CJ-4 standard and will have reduced levels of phosphorus, below that even of what Mobil 1 0w40 has.

So no more diesel oil usage? stick with the mobil 1 15-50 or RP?

[JPB]

Castor oil is very expensive, and not recommended for automotive applications.


AND, as anyone who knows any French will tell you, Castor oil is made from freshly squeezed Beavers, as found on the Canadian $0.05 piece.




I like to use synthetic blends myself, not too $$$, and I just use the recommended 30W.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Ther term of show me your castor is derived from this statement also.

I use seal oil. AAaaah yes, you all don't know this but there is seal oil which refreshes your seals so THEY WON'T LEAK!! Like the castor oil this oil comes from club seals. Ya know, the ones ya hit over the head with a club. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

[cnavarro]

For sake of not having another long oil thread, here are the oils I now recommend: Brad Penn 20w50 and Swepco 306 15w40. There are other oils with higher price points, but it's pretty damn hard to beat the Brad Penn. There is another oil thread going here, on 914club, Pelican Parts, and other forums - It's getting hard to remember where I've posted :-)

[brer]

Castor oil is very expensive, and not recommended for automotive applications.


AND, as anyone who knows any French will tell you, Castor oil is made from freshly squeezed Beavers, as found on the Canadian $0.05 piece.

you are either joking or some frenchie has been fooling with you.