EV 914's Options

[Dave_Darling]

When modifications start increasing weight, raising Cg height, and increasing polar moment of inertia, handling moves away from the nimble chassis that the 914 started with.

Well, that is definitely a consistent viewpoint!

Still, I think the EV conversions are just as valid and possibly even more interesting than the V8 conversions. (Barring Marty's unbelievable monster, that is!)

None of them give the same experience as a stock 914, but they're still pretty neat.

Unless you have a crystal ball nobody can know where we will be in 1,5,20 years.

Predicting 1 year is easy. We'll be basically in the same situation as now.

Predicting 5 years isn't that bad. Generally, things will be about the same as now, but there may be some changes that are more accepted than they currently are.

20 years is a lot harder to guess...

--DD

[nsyr]

I enjoy reading all the "negative" comments on EV's because I used to share them myself. I don't like the word negative because a lot of them are legitimate concerns regarding EV's.

I have had a handful of Porsches. And 25 years I never owned an automatic. I now have a Tesla Model 3 Performance. Before I bought it I hated the model 3. I hated the minimalist interior, the lack of controls and buttons (opening glove box with 'tablet'). But it quickly grew on me. Now when I drive my wife's Honda Pilot (Well over 50 buttons/switches/knobs) it is just too busy. BTW, opening the glove box from the center screen is pretty quick and it does provide automatic security as you cannot open it if you break into the car. The car is very intuitive and adds a lot of conveniences that you wouldn't think of in every day driving. As for performance it is very quick. 0-60 3.2 seconds and the throttle response will give you whiplash. First time I mashed the throttle while cruising at 45 mph I smacked my head on the back of the seat.

The battery technology has and is currently improving but still remains the weak point in my opinion. Long distance travel is doable but you will spend 15-20 minutes at a supercharger every 200 miles. 95% of my driving is around town so it is not an issue and plugging a charger in it (twice a week) takes less than 10 seconds and is done at home and not a gas station.

I am in Florida and the state has limited insurance companies from charging excessive amounts for coverage. When I got coverage they never even asked what version of Model 3 I had. Comprehensive is the only one that costs more as the car is expensive to repair. Everything else costs less than my wife's car and less than what I paid for the Infiniti I had before the Tesla.

I fully understand the hesitancy to 'welcome' electric cars as I was definitely one of them. I used to rag on them saying the exact same things a lot of people here are saying. But now I don't think I could ever go back to an ICE car as a daily driver.

Feel free to ask questions.

[Superhawk996]

When modifications start increasing weight, raising Cg height, and increasing polar moment of inertia, handling moves away from the nimble chassis that the 914 started with.

Well, that is definitely a consistent viewpoint!

Funny how Physics is like that -- it doesn't care about my opinion or anyone else's. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

None of them give the same experience as a stock 914, but they're still pretty neat.

I don't disagree, as long as we don't pretend that the vehicle still handles like a stock 914.

A Pantera is neat - if I wanted a quirky, vintage mid engine car with an American V8 - this would be my 1st choice.

Even Telsa's are neat w.r.t acceleration -- I've been saying for years on this forum, that no matter what conversion you do to a 914 (including cobbled EV's), you're not going to match the wicked fast acceleration of a Tesla running Ludicrious or Plaid mode. Without AWD and stupid wide tires, you'll never get enough rubber and tractive effort under a 914 to match the Tesla.

There were also a lot of other "neat" EV ideas that never quite made it for varying reasons.
Anyone remember these?
GM EV1
Corbin Sparrow
Aptera (still kicking around -- at least on paper).

Li-ion batteries were a game changer with respect to decreasing battery weight and increasing range. However, to pretend that EV's are just as practical as ICE for those of us that need to travel large distances is just folly given today's realities. Might it change in the distant future - very possibly. As you stated earlier, it wont be in the next year or even the next 5.

[914e]

My goal is to weigh the same as a six.

I think that is an admirable goal. Just be aware (which it seems you are) that weight isn't the only thing. It also matters where the weight is located and how it is oriented.

One thing I should point out is those conversions used a small drive unit which is roughly 198 pounds.

@914e

Whats 90 lbs among friends. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grouphug.gif)

So we'll call the total 600 lbs for that rear module. Way to heavy and the fact is that motor is still behind the axle and is a serious degradation as far as driving dynamics are concerned. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

In all honesty, I'm intrigued by your conversion proposal. You get extra points in my book by retaining a transmission and a clutch pedal as an anti-theft device.

It sounds like you are at least trying to minimize the handling degradation and have a decent chance of achieving something close based on what you've laid out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/first.gif) A big chunk of your success will depend where that front mass goes. If you can get it inside the fuel tank compartment, that is a huge success to keep mass centralized. As it continues to move forward from the OEM location, you'll be adding to moment of inertia even though the weight might be close to a full fuel tank. Location of the front weight matters a lot.

Do you have a build thread? If not, please start one and let's see how it shapes up.

I have a build thread, I will have to find it and update it. There didn't seem to be much interest in it, so I stopped updating it.

[914e]

Where does one find these 450 whL batteries?

The SK innovation has batteries close to that. Ford is using them along with VW group.
The Ford module size is not the best for a 914. 24x15x5 in

412 wH per liter
259 wH per kilogram

The ID4 has battery modules a better size, they could be located very low on each side of the motor
Length 590mm
Width 225mm
Height 110mm

Thanks. So not available outside OEM?

Also it's not for a 914. I'm looking into doing a practical DD likely my old Nissan truck.

Is it just me or did cells nearly double in price this year?

Batteries like everything else are hard to find right now.

The VDA 355 module format is somewhat of a standard typical is:
Module size: 355*151*108(mm) Module specification: 3P4S/4P3S Rated capacity: 153/204(Ah) Rated voltage: 14.6/10.95(V) I believe the iPace used this size.


VW seems to be using the VDA 590 format
Capacity: 156Ah, 6.85kWh
Height: 11 cm
Width: 22.5 cm
Length: 59 cm
Weight: 32 kg
Bolt Size: M6
Voltage nominal: 3.7V/Cell, 44.4V/Module
Charge voltage cut-off: 4.2V/Cell, 50.V/Module
Discharging cut-off: 3.3V/Cell, 39.6/Module
Maximum Discharging Current (10 sec.): 800 Amps

Finding used modules from a totaled car is the what most people are currently doing. $100 a kWh is still the going rate for used modules.

[mate914]

This is part of the list of 6000 things make from oil.
Please go through the list and mark off what you can live with out?
Please keep in mind with out most of this stuff millions of people would be dead.





Solvents Diesel fuel Motor Oil Bearing Grease
Ink Floor Wax Ballpoint Pens Football Cleats
Upholstery Sweaters Boats Insecticides
Bicycle Tires Sports Car Bodies Nail Polish Fishing lures
Dresses Tires Golf Bags Perfumes
Cassettes Dishwasher parts Tool Boxes Shoe Polish
Motorcycle Helmet Caulking Petroleum Jelly Transparent Tape
CD Player Faucet Washers Antiseptics Clothesline
Curtains Food Preservatives Basketballs Soap
Vitamin Capsules Antihistamines Purses Shoes
Dashboards Cortisone Deodorant Shoelace Aglets
Putty Dyes Panty Hose Refrigerant
Percolators Life Jackets Rubbing Alcohol Linings
Skis TV Cabinets Shag Rugs Electrician’s Tape
Tool Racks Car Battery Cases Epoxy Paint
Mops Slacks Insect Repellent Oil Filters
Umbrellas Yarn Fertilizers Hair Coloring
Roofing Toilet Seats Fishing Rods Lipstick
Denture Adhesive Linoleum Ice Cube Trays Synthetic Rubber
Speakers Plastic Wood Electric Blankets Glycerin
Tennis Rackets Rubber Cement Fishing Boots Dice
Nylon Rope Candles Trash Bags House Paint
Water Pipes Hand Lotion Roller Skates Surf Boards
Shampoo Wheels Paint Rollers Shower Curtains
Guitar Strings Luggage Aspirin Safety Glasses
Antifreeze Football Helmets Awnings Eyeglasses
Clothes Toothbrushes Ice Chests Footballs
Combs CD’s & DVD’s Paint Brushes Detergents
Vaporizers Balloons Sun Glasses Tents
Heart Valves Crayons Parachutes Telephones
Enamel Pillows Dishes Cameras
Anesthetics Artificial Turf Artificial limbs Bandages
Dentures Model Cars Folding Doors Hair Curlers
Cold cream Movie film Soft Contact lenses Drinking Cups
Fan Belts Car Enamel Shaving Cream Ammonia
Refrigerators Golf Balls Toothpaste Gasoline

Matt

[Puebloswatcop]

The sad thing is all of the oil and fossil fuel it takes to make and charge these batteries. Then the poisons they leave behind when they are no longer usable. Everyone thinks these are the green of tomorrow and yes they might help clean up our air, but they will be the carcinogens causing all kinds of cancer in the future.

[Dave_Darling]

This is part of the list of 6000 things make from oil.
Please go through the list and mark off what you can live with out?

What does that have to do with anything?? Do you imagine that people driving EVs will automagically close all of the oil wells instantaneously??




EVs are touted by some (particularly Elon fanboys) as being the be-all end-all. They're not. We've seen circumstances discussed here that they are a very poor fit for.

But they're not useless, or toys, or golf carts. They have a very real place in our mobility in the future. Something like 90% of the population of the US personal transportation needs could be met exclusively by the types of EVs we currently have on the market.

I think 914 EVs are interesting conversions. More so, to me, than the near-ubiquitous small-block Chevy swap.

--DD

[bbrock]

This is part of the list of 6000 things make from oil.
Please go through the list and mark off what you can live with out?

Isn't this a strong argument FOR EVs? All these useful and not so useful things we can make out of oil. Why do we want to just burn it?

[bbrock]

The sad thing is all of the oil and fossil fuel it takes to make and charge these batteries.

This argument was debunked a decade ago and has only gotten less of a concern since then. https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/cleaner-cars-cradle-grave

[strawman]

Many of you on this site know me as the guy who has a crazy-fast WRX-powered Porsche 914 autocrosser that is also street "legal" here in CA. But I also own a stock 914, so I can attest that they are two completely different animals.

I am an engine swapping fiend, including in the past 20 years: fuel-injected Suzuki Sidekick engine into a Samurai rock-crawler, a VW GTi engine in a former diesel-powered Vanagon Westy, a Subaru 2.2 engine into a Vanagon Westy Syncro, Suby engine in my 1973 914, a BMW M3 S52 engine into a lightweight-ish 318ti, a 3.0 liter 24-valve M54 engine into a 1985 former diesel-powered BMW E28, a 2.7 liter V6 engine into a Hyundai Elantra 24 Hrs of Lemons racecar, and an M54 engine into a BMW E12-based E24 Lemons racecar that I'm currently wrapping up. More power always makes a car more enjoyable to me, although the underlying characteristics (some good and some bad) of a car certainly change.

For the past 80k miles, my daily driver is a 2015 Chevy Volt plug-in hybrid. Its battery gets me to/from work everyday (range is ~32 miles; my commute is 11 miles each way), and I usually go 4-5 weeks without having to fill up with Premium gas for its ICE. Sure, it is an "appliance" that only makes me smile when I see how many miles I've traveled since my last gas fill up -- especially with Premium gas at almost $7/gallon here on the CA Central Coast (usually highest in the Nation!). But I've got a ton of solar panels on my workshop, so much of my driving in the Volt comes to me at no dollar cost. Motor Trend's Jonny Lieberman (a 914 owner!) posted about me recently using my Volt to fill-in when my 914 autocrosser was broken (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving-girl.gif)



A guy who used to autocross his Subaru WRX STI here on the Central Coast would normally finish mid-pack. In other words, I'd beat him in my Suby-powered 914. But he's now finishing first or in the top 5 with his new Tesla Model 3 Performance. Despite its heft, that car accelerates harder and stops quicker than seems possible! His wife co-drives it occasionally and, even though she's a novice, she turns in impressive times, too. The technology is definitely progressing. Since my 914 has already been bastardized, I would definitely consider going EV with it when I get tired of the 302whp that the Suby engine provides (or if I blow it up AGAIN!).

As an aside, I manage the regional public transit system here in SLO County, and we just issued a purchase order for our first two battery-electric buses. The conventional wisdom is that a vehicle's lithium battery pack will diminish over time to about 70% of the original level after 400k to 500k miles, and then stay at that level for a long time afterward. Of course, that has yet to be fully proven on today's modern lithium batteries, but only time will tell. In any case, there is definitely a second-life market for them as back-up power; they have great value to store on-site generated solar power. We have allocated space in our bus yard for that future use of our old bus batteries for another 10 yrs when the bus is retired, after which the batteries can be recycled.

One last thought: transmitting electricity can be safer and cleaner than transporting oil. Fallen power lines can and do start fires, while oil pipelines fail, trucks overturn and ships leak. That doesn't mean I hate internal combustion engines -- quite the contrary. I own two 914s, a 1956 VW Beetle, a Class A motorhome, a big block Suburban, a BMW E46 convertible, two BMW E28s, A C5 Corvette, a forklift, a trail bike, etc. But I do believe electrification of our transportation sector over time will continue to march on during the second five decades of my life.

[GeorgeKopf]

This TED talk does a pretty good job of explaining where we are today with electric vehicles.

The contradictions of Battery Operated Vehicles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1E8SQde5rk

Of course if you don't buy into his premises then you won't accept his conclusion.

George

[wonkipop]

meanwhile

this hit the news down here.
porsche. e-fuels. and tasmania?!!!!

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-10/efue...-west/101223944

[sechszylinder]

When modifications start increasing weight, raising Cg height, and increasing polar moment of inertia, handling moves away from the nimble chassis that the 914 started with.

Well, that is definitely a consistent viewpoint!

Still, I think the EV conversions are just as valid and possibly even more interesting than the V8 conversions. (Barring Marty's unbelievable monster, that is!)

None of them give the same experience as a stock 914, but they're still pretty neat.

Unless you have a crystal ball nobody can know where we will be in 1,5,20 years.

Predicting 1 year is easy. We'll be basically in the same situation as now.

Predicting 5 years isn't that bad. Generally, things will be about the same as now, but there may be some changes that are more accepted than they currently are.

20 years is a lot harder to guess...

--DD

I think, the fact is, that there will be e fuels for application fields, where electricity is not available, not apliccable or not effficiently to use.
Think about aviation, the military, navy, very heavy trucks and so on.
From my point of view this is the key enabler.
When manufacturarer of e fuels will see, that there is a market, besides the mentioned applications, they will jump in and will produce derivates, e.g. e fuel for ice engines.
At the end of the day, its a question of the price tag.

On the other hand, the EU for example has decided on the prohibition of producing ICE based cars from 2032 on.
This means in the opposite, that there will fuel for at least 10 years. And if you take into account, that the last produced cars in 2032 will have a lifetime of at least 6 years one may come to the assumption, that fuel will be available for that time period.
Again, a question of the price tag…

In the meantime I will enjoy my cars in the same way as gourmets enjoy there meals. Not every day, but on a regular basis.

One thing I‘ve forgot to mention: We do already have high prices for fuel, due to the russian agression. This makes as well e fuels an attractive market for manufacturer, cause the high prices are somewhat accepted and the break even point maybe comes closer.

BR

Benno