EV 914's Options

[URY914]

Would love to convert my 914 autocross car. I would be a rocket ship. I saw a WV Bug over the weekend at a show that used Tesla battery packs. see ...

[URY914]

[bbrock]

Well, let's consider these two examples. They said the rear battery pack plus Tesla drive train weighs about the same as a Six engine and trans. Okay, I've heard people argue even the extra weight of a six takes away some of the nimbleness of a four, but people seem to be pretty happy with the handling of their sixes.

I think you missed my point - or more likely chose to ignore it because, yes, I know how you are (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

There's no disagreement that batteries have not come close to the energy density of gasoline, so yes, any 914 EV conversion will be a compromise as the 914 (or any car) has been since first conception. I'm just saying it is now possible to match the weight distribution of a stock 914 with an EV package that gets a respectable amount of range, keeps the fantastic handling, gains a (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif) ton of torque and power, and sound damn cool while beating the pants off any stock 914. Yes, that's right, EVs sound cool (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif) That would not be easily accomplished just a decade ago.

No, the car is not going to be a long hauler. If you want that, you have to pay the weight and handling penalty like you say. Can't deny that the energy density of liquid petrol has its perks. I'm just saying that if you constrain the conversion to matching the weight distribution of a stock ICE, you can still have a fun car. 100 mile range really isn't bad for a pleasure ride. You don't have to have "boundless optimism." Even if you are realistic about trade-offs and limitations, there is a lot to like about EVs and they just keep getting better.

Love the info card on that bug. Very cool!

[wonkipop]

@bbrock - i can see the point @Superhawk996 is making.
at least in relation to the EV conversion in question.

they have installed a battery pack in the nose forward of the front axle line.
which will change the low polar moment character of the 914 where all major weight was inboard.

also the battery pack in the engine bay is vertical so some weight is up at a higher centre of gravity?

it might not ruin the 914 but it will change it.
the front battery pack location means that things are more like a blend of 924 where major weight was right out to ends of car in line with axles or boxster where they have deliberately put weight out past the axle lines (ie radiators etc) to curb low polar moment snappiness. however in case of both examples porsche took care to have 50 50 weight distribution. if you could set up an ev to maintain that 50 50 weight dist and importantly balanced the right distance from axle lines you might end up with a very neutral handling car closer to a 924 or boxster.

but as superhawk says. it isn't a 914 anymore.

i think it would very tricky to do an ev conversion on a 914 and keep its particular handling character. ideally the battery packs need to go in the space where the fuel tank once was. and for the power unit and battery packs in engine area to have as low a centre of gravity as possible.

[bbrock]

@bbrock - i can see the point @Superhawk996 is making.
at least in relation to the EV conversion in question.

Oh, I get his point too. I'm just saying ditch the pack in the frunk, move what you can to the gas tank area, and take the hit on range and you are close to where you started on weight distribution. Not exact, but close. To say that an EV conversion ruins the handling of a 914 as a blanket statement is a bit of an overreach IMO.

As far as whether it is still a 914, I'd have to drive it before I would make that call. People transplant all sorts of exotic drive trains into these chassis without getting kicked out of the 914 club. Whatever they are, they look like hella fun cars. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[wonkipop]

@bbrock - i can see the point @Superhawk996 is making.
at least in relation to the EV conversion in question.

Oh, I get his point too. I'm just saying ditch the pack in the frunk, move what you can to the gas tank area, and take the hit on range and you are close to where you started on weight distribution. Not exact, but close. To say that an EV conversion ruins the handling of a 914 as a blanket statement is a bit of an overreach IMO.

As far as whether it is still a 914, I'd have to drive it before I would make that call. People transplant all sorts of exotic drive trains into these chassis without getting kicked out of the 914 club. Whatever they are, they look like hella fun cars. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

yes thats right. i'd take the hit on range over handling too if was doing it.

given i drive a gutless 1.8, i treasure the feel of the car driving it.
thats the one thing i would not want to ruin.
if i was doing an ev i would want to somehow retain that.

the alternative would be to build an acceleration monster.
not a bad idea either. i quite like the idea of all those V-8 conversions you americans do.
but its a different car.

i think the greater challenge is the conversion that maintains the original weight distribution and mass. technically its a lot harder to do than a pragmatic approach that results in a different kind of overall chassis character.

[mepstein]

It’s pretty easy to lighten a 914 by 200-250lbs and a 300lb weight savings isn’t impossible. So there is a lot of room to help make up for the batteries.
You also have to individualize the owners needs. I know a local member who uses his 914ev for a 5 mile work commute. He might be very happy with 40-50 miles of range. I realize we are talking Delaware and not the Midwest. For some people, electric might never satisfy their needs but that’s ok.

[wonkipop]

It’s pretty easy to lighten a 914 by 200-250lbs and a 300lb weight savings isn’t impossible. So there is a lot of room to help make up for the batteries.
You also have to individualize the owners needs. I know a local member who uses his 914ev for a 5 mile work commute. He might be very happy with 40-50 miles of range. I realize we are talking Delaware and not the Midwest. For some people, electric might never satisfy their needs but that’s ok.

something like this might satisfy me.
looks like it goes around corners. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96UjqDWGVns

[mate914]

If electric cars are the way of the future why does the Gov have to force them on us?
Why not let the free market innovate and develop ev things. Gas is expensive on purpose.

Group think is one brick throw away from mob rules.....

How about east coast and west coat can have only ev cars because of population density?
Rural areas need gas. I have a 20 miles one way drive for meds or food. We also have water running across the roads after rain. Take that ev throw 6inches of water and your fucked.

I think ev are cool. I don't think they are the future, they are 100 year old tech +.
Its like putting a GPS map on a horse and telling you that you can save money on gas.

That bug have enough money in his engine ($15385) to do a 356SC engine.

Matt (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif)

[pvollma]

A bit of a complementary topic, this is the best explanation I've seen as to why electric cars are NOT the answer yet:

The Contradictions of Battery Operated Vehicles

(14 minute TEDx talk)

[Superhawk996]

I think ev are cool. I don't think they are the future, they are 100 year old tech +.
Its like putting a GPS map on a horse and telling you that you can save money on gas.

And if you just watched the TED talk above - you will have learned that the horse is a CO2 emitter -- Bad Horsie (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead horse.gif)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5BrE1Pi5cU


The power of propaganda (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif)

[NARP74]

The next big thing is sometimes a bust. But I am hoping it leads to the next big thing. Like going from incandescent to CFL to LED. We needed number two to get to number three. Is Hydrogen the next number three? I hated the CFL bulb, crap light, no dimming, they hummed, they were hot and did not last as long as advertised.

100 years ago the distribution of power in an automobile was almost even, 1/3 gas, 1/3 steam and 1/3 electric. We have not come a long way baby.

I also question what happens to the tens of thousands of battery packs and solar panels in 5, 10 or 20 years when they are expired. Toxic waste?

[2L914Eh]

I mentioned this EV conversion possibility for my fourteener to one of my sons after surfing the net on the topic and reading then piece about Frances and her 914 EV efforts in the latest Panorama. He looked sideways at me and said, so dad, you want to build this into a golf cart? Ha ha. I'm thinking awhile about that perspective.

[930cabman]

One of my favorite parts of the 914 is the light weight. Batteries and light weight are not a fit.

The technology is at least a bunch of years away until EV's can compete with our time tested IC engines

[bbrock]

One of my favorite parts of the 914 is the light weight. Batteries and light weight are not a fit.

The technology is at least a bunch of years away until EV's can compete with our time tested IC engines

Hmm, the last 8 Le Mans winners were EV hybrids using Lithium ion batteries. Seems they can compete in at least some respects.

And again, review the examples we are talking about here. Dump part of the front battery pack and move what you can into the fuel tank compartment and you have a lightweight 914 that weighs no more than a stock six with probably a little over 100 miles of range that will smoke most ICE configurations we've stuffed into these chassis.

I'm not an EV fanboy and think they have some improvements to make before an EV will be parked in my garage, but the technology has a lot to offer even today. These two cars in particular check a lot of boxes.

[Chris914n6]

So I guess I won't be road tripping in a 914 anytime soon. Sounding a lot more like an ice cream getter to me.

The frunk pack would actually be +100 miles as the rear pack/motor assm is 100 miles. 200 miles could get you out of town, though....

Vegas to Salt Lake, Red Rocks 2022, 430 miles. So 1 and a half charges to get there plus 2 and a half to get back, plus a charge a day to do the runs.
Using the Beetle as the example that's 16 hours of charging per stop. Let's say your batteries can do fast charging but not Tesla Supercharging, that's about 1 hour per stop right? Doable actually.

But realistically because the trip is over 200 miles one way I would flat tow, which would add noticeably to the trip as the tow pig gets about half the mpg of the 914n6.

Also... I will notice +280lbs in the frunk as I understeer thru the corners. My filled radiator with fans is only 20lbs. My v6 is 320lbs loaded with a/c comp, so between a -4 and -6. At $7k for a 26kw battery I could do 2 conversions. At $5.50/gal that's >30k miles just to break even with 1 pack cost. No reason to continue with the whole EV cost return.

On a positive note, that is a clean EV install and overall I dig the car, except the front turns.

[Superhawk996]

And again, review the examples we are talking about here. Dump part of the front battery pack and move what you can into the fuel tank compartment and you have a lightweight 914 that weighs no more than a stock six with probably a little over 100 miles of range that will smoke most ICE configurations we've stuffed into these chassis.

@bbrock

I think you missed the part where I was super generous with my package assumptions and said let's ASSUME we can package 62L of battery with 100% package efficiency.

I made no allowance for Battery Management System, battery cooling loop plumbing, high voltage wiring, and power electronics.

You will get nowhere near that battery capacity I calculated in the that fuel tank compartment in REALITY

Take a look a the Beetle picture closely. You'd be lucky to fit 2 of those battery modules in the volume available for the fuel tank. So maybe 10 KWh of battery capacity with only 80% of that being usable (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif) You will get no where 100 miles of range on batteries that only take up the fuel tank compartment on current battery technology . Oh, and take a look at the weight of the Beetle battery pack -- I was also super generous with the weight estimate too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

You will not keep the dynamic handling character of a 914 with an EV conversion.

You're reference to LeMans is an apples to oranges comparison. I don't deny that a purpose designed EV racer can do well w.r.t. handling given the batteries will be packaged for low Cg and centralized mass . . . a cobbled 914 EV conversion is another story and the handing WILL be degraded because of the physics and the realities of where we are w.r.t. battery technology.

Seems the boundless optimism is creeping in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grouphug.gif)

[bbrock]

I think you missed the part where I was super generous with my package assumptions and said let's ASSUME we can package 62L of battery with 100% package efficiency.

Watch the video again. These cars have 52KWh of batteries. Twenty-six KWh are in the frunk and 26 KWh in the engine bay. The drive train PLUS rear battery pack and cooling is roughly the weight of a six cylinder engine and transmission according to the vid. Just dump the front pack altogether and you are already close to, or exceeding 100 mile range by your calculations. Now let's add whatever batteries to the fuel compartment we can to equal the weight of a full fuel tank. Your calculations indicate you get about 12KWh in 44.6 Kg of batteries that would approximate the weight of a full gas tank. Let's knock that down to 10KWh to allow for the electronics that are already in the fuel compartment. That's an extra 42 miles of range by your calculation. So we would be looking at what, 120-150 miles of range without adding any weight? I could have some fun with that.

It isn't optimism. It's just doing some math on what has already been built.

[bbrock]

You're reference to LeMans is an apples to oranges comparison. I don't deny that a purpose designed EV racer can do well w.r.t. handling given the batteries will be packaged for low Cg and centralized mass . . . a cobbled 914 EV conversion is another story and the handing WILL be degraded because of the physics and the realities of where we are w.r.t. battery technology.

Nope. Because I didn't make that comparison, you did. The statement I was responding to was that EV technology is years away from being able to compete with ICE. That said, I know what @930cabman was saying and generally agree. Until we are able to conveniently get 200 miles+ range on a 15 minute charge, I don't think EVs will compete with ICE for the full spectrum of use cases for cars. We need a LOT of improvement in charging infrastructure and some improvement in battery/charging tech. However, I think it is fair to say EV is already out-competing ICE in many areas of what we expect cars to do and already satisfy some use cases nicely.

One example, we are in need of a new truck and are eyeing the Ford F150 Lightening carefully. Why? Because we only use pickup trucks for hauling crap in the bed, and 200 miles of range is more than enough for us for that purpose. We could charge it with our solar power at home AND the truck could be used as battery backup for our house. A Youtuber did the math and figured out it is actually cheaper to by an F150 than to buy the equivalent number of Tesla Powerwalls to match the energy storage of the truck. Of course, that is an insane amount of storage for backup of most homes, but funny to think about.

[wonkipop]

@bbrock & @Superhawk996

achtung.

don't even bother argueing.
the future is here.
i posted it above.
check the youtube link.
a 4 wheel motorcycle that is the closest thing to a 21st century 914 just blew doors at goodwood hill climb this year.

just get access to an apricot orchard and grow biofuel to have a strategy to preserve 914s or power your house off your ford (and those numbers are correct bbrock (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) ).

but you would not bother with an ev conversion when you see what just went down - days ago.

ev. fan powered downdraft. its here. and its not a replacement, or a conversion,
its a whole new idea (the new is made of the old remixed with some spices). which is what the future is meant to be.

and its compelling.

914s are fabulous. the best museum piece you could have. a high point.

and now there is a hint of whats next.

try a tiny car. with a 0- 186 mph in under 9 seconds.
like fu%k 0-60 mph. lets have a whole new measure.

hit the link in my post above.
are you guys all asleep or something.