27,000 mile original '74 on BaT, This will be interesting Options

[wonkipop]

@Van B
i better be nice re ye olde romeo dude instead of being an old smart alec myself.
he might end up here after he lands it.

could need help?

[gandalf_025]

Mine has been parked since 1988...
I know the miles are real, I'm the one that let it sit.
Even though it is a lot more miles than the car listed, it
does happen..
I pulled the original engine out of my car at about 35,000 miles
and put it on a shelf.

So you can't tell without closer inspection or more documentation..

Last Inspection Sticker is still on the windshield of my car..

[Superhawk996]

if you have certifiable 27,000 m car not merely an alleged one you would not be selling on BAT. it would be sotherby's or similar handling the sales job.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Exactly!

[Big Len]

Guys, do you have any clue what the costs are to be a consigner at Sotheby's? And that's IF it gets accepted after you submitted all the docs and pics.
You've got an entry fee, a professional photography fee, transportation costs to the auction site, and of course, a minimal 10% of the hammer price, all for your sub-$80k car. And what if it doesn't sell or make reserve? Tough shitsky. Come and get it.
That's why BaT is a relatively good deal.

[Superhawk996]

Guys, do you have any clue what the costs are to be a consigner at Sotheby's?

in my case, I was using Southeby's as the shorthand for any of the various automotive auction houses that would tend to bring a higher number to a documented original 28K mile car than what BAT is going to generate.

Agree that Southeby's may not be the right venue.

However, we'll see what BAT brings in the closing days. For the moment, price appears to have stalled. Hopefully a sign that others don't see it as original miles either. As it stands at $28K that would definately be a great buy. We'll see what it runs up to at close.

[wonkipop]

Guys, do you have any clue what the costs are to be a consigner at Sotheby's? And that's IF it gets accepted after you submitted all the docs and pics.
You've got an entry fee, a professional photography fee, transportation costs to the auction site, and of course, a minimal 10% of the hammer price, all for your sub-$80k car. And what if it doesn't sell or make reserve? Tough shitsky. Come and get it.
That's why BaT is a relatively good deal.

i could be wrong @Big Len but i think the commission gets added to the hammer price at the established auction houses. sometimes the later published result is with the commission added to the hammer.
.
but yeah - you still have the other costs.
though it is starting to look like some BAT sellers are moving up a notch in the professional photography stakes.

the couple of "ordinary" 1.8 or 1.7s that have pulled large money have done it on condition and originality. buyers of those cars are collecting an artefact - not a car? but i agree, BAT is the place for most 914s. but if you have a real artefact -- then you have to treat it like one. i mean it either is or it isn't?

don't get me wrong, i like the idea of our 1.8s getting treated seriously.
but to be treated seriously you move into a different space.

in BAT's favour they are building up an amazing on line archive.
wouldn't mind betting they turn that into a $ earning resource down the road.
pay to be a member "google" or encyclopedia for cars?
i've pulled down a wealth of info on our 1.8s picking through past sales and the documentation. it helped solve the question of what was an EC-B and an EC-A 1.8 engine. for the moment that treasure trove of information is free to access.

[wonkipop]

Guys, do you have any clue what the costs are to be a consigner at Sotheby's?

in my case, I was using Southeby's as the shorthand for any of the various automotive auction houses that would tend to bring a higher number to a documented original 28K mile car than what BAT is going to generate.

Agree that Southeby's may not be the right venue.

However, we'll see what BAT brings in the closing days. For the moment, price appears to have stalled. Hopefully a sign that others don't see it as original miles either. As it stands at $28K that would definately be a great buy. We'll see what it runs up to at close.

yes - $ action has cooled off!
it would be a good car to pick up at around that price.

probably be a flurry in the final half hour.

if a bidder did think it was the real deal they should have a plane ticket booked to see it in the metal. at least they would know what the top end is thanks to sotherbys.

meanwhile. i'm (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) mine. thats what the odometers for? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Van B]

I’m thinking about flipping a 29k mile car… I found the secret ingredient!
https://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/pts...7515434450.html

[wonkipop]

I’m thinking about flipping a 29k mile car… I found the secret ingredient!
https://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/pts...7515434450.html

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

that will be fun. all the sleuths can get to work to try and bust you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

[r_towle]

One winter or two in the northeast can create a ton of rust.
Let it sit for a while…need a muffler, battery tray, etc etc

Not shocked seeing low mileage cars with loads of rust up here.

[mepstein]

One winter or two in the northeast can create a ton of rust.
Let it sit for a while…need a muffler, battery tray, etc etc

Not shocked seeing low mileage cars with loads of rust up here.

My 36k mile ‘71 had a very bad hell hole. Interior was pristine.

[StarBear]

My car “shows” nearly 20k miles - but I have the maintenance records, gas logs, and repair bills to prove it’s 120k! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[wonkipop]

One winter or two in the northeast can create a ton of rust.
Let it sit for a while…need a muffler, battery tray, etc etc

Not shocked seeing low mileage cars with loads of rust up here.

My 36k mile ‘71 had a very bad hell hole. Interior was pristine.

true.
i saw some of them back in 89.

the secretary's blue 1.7 that pulled 80K came from chicago.
she retired to florida.
it didn't have rust.
she didn't drive it in winter?

it has to be an artefact for a collector?
.
you know what i am saying. if the discussion is - ......is it $70K
which is the topic.
or will a 74 1.8 pull 70K

it could. but it would have to be as good as the two base cars i know about that have made it to that level.

somewhere out there is probably a 74 1.8 at the level of the 75 1.8 that dragged down big $ at sotherbys and the 73 1.7 from florida which did similar.

but i don't think this one on BAT is it.

and i am still shocked to think that a 74 1.8 is even considered valuable.
and i own one and love them. what has happened to the world.
either its insane or actually its become very sane.
the car is right there at the invention of L jet.
a pristine one has got to have sheer museum value.
i'm biased.

so is @Big Len cheers Big Len. you have taste.

[Big Len]

Not that my opinion matters much, but do I think this car has 27,000 miles?
Yes, I'm buying it (not literally). Here's my reasoning -

First, I've followed BaT for a long time well before they had auctions, so these are just my oberservations. Many cars with low mileage are east of the Mississippi and north of Interstate 40. They have low mileage because the WEATHER SUCKS. We get maybe 6 months out of the year with lots of rain and cloudy days. In winter, the roads are covered in salt and acid-like brine that dissolves metal, so unlike California and other places, the car stays unused for those months. This applies for all collectable cars, not just our 914s. This car has remained in that zone.

Looking at the car, it's condition is very good. All the carpets look near new, the hardware, the upper heater hoses (Yes, I know wonkipop, you mentioned he ordered new ones, but those part numbers are different than the ones going to the fan), any touchable surface, and the body and floor panels look great. There are some oddities. It looks like the car was partly driven on gravel roads, perhaps a long driveway to the house as the chassis looks dirty and lightly chipped especially around the springs. For whatever reason, the owner didn't bother to clean this area.

I read George's opinion early in the comments section and granted he knows 100X what I know, but I was a little surprised by his negative comments. He called it "a stripper". Well, it may not have fogs and a console and chrome bumpers, but it does have tinted glass and factory F & R sway bars. I wouldn't have called it that. And I don't care about the striping. No harm, no foul.

Listen, I don't think it's worth $70K, but buyers on BaT put a sizable premium on low mileage, colorful cars. They have developed a pretty big audience of potential buyers and it only takes 2 dreamers to run up the price to $60K and above. If this was a 2 liter with all the options, yeah, I'd go north of $82K or so, crazy, but again, it only takes 2. The stoppage in bidding is typical, so I wouldn't go by that. So I'm betting on the bidding and not so much the car's value. But who the hell knows.

[Superhawk996]

My car “shows” nearly 20k miles - but I have the maintenance records, gas logs, and repair bills to prove it’s 120k! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/first.gif)

You are rightfully proud of those miles that have been earned though real world use.

Personally, I don't understand all the fuss over low mileage collector pieces. Let's just say for a moment that it really was an original 28K mile car. What does that really imply?

That means the "value" in the car is related to its low mileage. So now someone will have paid a premium on an otherwise nice car, just for the low mileage. Any subsequent mileage just means massive depreciation per mile added. So unless that buyer is going to throw away the mileage valuation, it can't be driven and enjoyed without destroying the low mileage premium that might be expected in the future.

We are are all have our own things that stir our souls. Parking a car in the garage an polishing it until the paint wears thin isn't mine. God bless those that find joy in just looking at a car. . . . but I don't get it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif)

[mepstein]

My car “shows” nearly 20k miles - but I have the maintenance records, gas logs, and repair bills to prove it’s 120k! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/first.gif)

You are rightfully proud of those miles that have been earned though real world use.

Personally, I don't understand all the fuss over low mileage collector pieces. Let's just say for a moment that it really was an original 28K mile car. What does that really imply?

That means the "value" in the car is related to its low mileage. So now someone will have paid a premium on an otherwise nice car, just for the low mileage. Any subsequent mileage just means massive depreciation per mile added. So unless that buyer is going to throw away the mileage valuation, it can't be driven and enjoyed without destroying the low mileage premium that might be expected in the future.

We are are all have our own things that stir our souls. Parking a car in the garage an polishing it until the paint wears thin isn't mine. God bless those that find joy in just looking at a car. . . . but I don't get it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif)

I'm the same way with numbers matching and date codes. I just don't care. If it's somebodies thing, great but it does nothing for me.

[dr914@autoatlanta.com]

I certainly believe the miles, just has had a hard hard life, maybe sitting in humidity, banged around, not maintained one bit, used as a storage shelf ETC.

Case in point, that dark green 914-6 John Forbes found with only 5100 miles on it: A hard one to believe the miles, but evidently well documented, yet we have it here parked next to a TRUE 5400 mile 71 six, and the difference is MORE than day and night. So is our 1974 light ivory "stripper" 1.8 that exactly matches this olympic blue car. DAY and NIGHT difference, as both of our cars were taken well care of and radiate low miles, where the blue one and the dark green six do not

[mepstein]

I certainly believe the miles, just has had a hard hard life, maybe sitting in humidity, banged around, not maintained one bit, used as a storage shelf ETC.

Case in point, that dark green 914-6 John Forbes found with only 5100 miles on it: A hard one to believe the miles, but evidently well documented, yet we have it here parked next to a TRUE 5400 mile 71 six, and the difference is MORE than day and night. So is our 1974 light ivory "stripper" 1.8 that exactly matches this olympic blue car. DAY and NIGHT difference, as both of our cars were taken well care of and radiate low miles, where the blue one and the dark green six do not

I used to live in the small town where John found the car. Hainesport NJ. Lots of old barns to leave a car to rot. I’m not surprised it showed rough. It’s the humidity that kills the cars around here, not the sun or the miles.

[Superhawk996]

Not buying the miles at all.

Too much road grime, rust, and corrosion on the fasteners for this to have been driven as little and garaged as much as claimed.

I've also spent a good chunk of my time looking at fasteners both in real world vehicle corrosion inspections (in Rochester NY) as well as lab based salt spray testing.

I'll do my best to justify with a few pictures.

Let's start with the front ARB lever arm. Looks pretty good but let's compare it with an arm the arms that came off my project car that likely had 160K miles.



Now let's look at the underbody - plenty of red rust corrosion on the undisturbed tin fasteners as well as the tin itself. This is not an area of the car that would get a ton of road spray from water, salt, gravel or whatever.



So the problem is -- was it stored heavily leading to low miles, or was it driven?

Before we get too far, yes, I agree corrosion continues even when stored or lightly used.

Allow me to make a relative comparison to my mother-in-laws's 1997 Toyota Camry. Classic old lady car. 67K miles. She's owned it since new. Driven lightly during Michigan winters. Largely, when roads are clear and dry but most certainly still salted. Has driven in worse slop but only when doctors appointments or something else made it mandatory for her to go out. Garaged most of it's life. Has been stored outdoors since late 2019.

Let me also state that corrosion protection of fasteners has been a serious challenge for OEM's with the mandated move away from Cad, Zinc, and any hexavalent chromium type products that began in the 1990's. Early 70's yellow chromated zinc will have better protection than many modern fastener coatings when applied at equivalent plating thickness. If anything the fasteners on this 914 should have aged better than the pictures below.



Notice how clean the CV joint boots are. Notice the yellow plated CV band clamp. Then look at the condition of the suspension fasteners. As good as or better than the "shows 28K" 914 fasteners.

Let's look at the Camry rear suspension.



Notice the factory paint dot on the toe link rod? And the condition of the toe link itself? Very little corrosion and/or road grime.

Now let's look at one more - common fasteners that were on the front cross member. These fasteners would be typical of black oxide and/or a very light Geomet / Dacromet type coating that has minimal salt spray corrosion resistance. Again, as good or better than what I see on the 914.



So here we have a car that is 25 years old, that has been continuously exposed to Michigan salt (even if only lightly) and has seen a combination of garage and outdoor storage. Michigan is a rust belt / salt belt state. West Virginia is not.

The "shows 28K" 914 would have only been 11 years years old when it supposedly went into storage in 1985. Although corrosion could continue unabated during the 37 years, it is highly doubtful that what we are looking at on the 914 is storage corrosion.

If the mileage on the 914 is so low because it was only used a few month a year, in good weather, that makes it even less likely that the 1st 11 years of its life would have been used on salted roads to give corrosion a foothold on so many fasteners to eat up the zinc and yellow chromate plated parts like it has.

Although some corrosion could have continued unabated during the 37 years between 1985 and 2022, that doesn't account for the other anomalies like the rust ring on the passenger side 1/2 shaft or the mix of new and old undercoating in various places on the car. The replacement of the front dampers (with KYB's none the less (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif))? The replacement of the heat exchangers and associated pipes, and flapper valves? Then there are the freshly painted valve covers?

I realize I'm not going to convince everyone that this "shows 28K" 914 isn't low mileage. I just hope to provide a sanity check to those that might not have the experience looking at corrosion to see that it is possible for a car (the Camry) to have been in continuous use, in the salt belt of Michigan, to have 60K miles on it and to actually look BETTER than what this supposedly low mileage 914 looks like.

[wonkipop]

Not that my opinion matters much, but do I think this car has 27,000 miles?
Yes, I'm buying it (not literally). Here's my reasoning -

First, I've followed BaT for a long time well before they had auctions, so these are just my oberservations. Many cars with low mileage are east of the Mississippi and north of Interstate 40. They have low mileage because the WEATHER SUCKS. We get maybe 6 months out of the year with lots of rain and cloudy days. In winter, the roads are covered in salt and acid-like brine that dissolves metal, so unlike California and other places, the car stays unused for those months. This applies for all collectable cars, not just our 914s. This car has remained in that zone.

Looking at the car, it's condition is very good. All the carpets look near new, the hardware, the upper heater hoses (Yes, I know wonkipop, you mentioned he ordered new ones, but those part numbers are different than the ones going to the fan), any touchable surface, and the body and floor panels look great. There are some oddities. It looks like the car was partly driven on gravel roads, perhaps a long driveway to the house as the chassis looks dirty and lightly chipped especially around the springs. For whatever reason, the owner didn't bother to clean this area.

I read George's opinion early in the comments section and granted he knows 100X what I know, but I was a little surprised by his negative comments. He called it "a stripper". Well, it may not have fogs and a console and chrome bumpers, but it does have tinted glass and factory F & R sway bars. I wouldn't have called it that. And I don't care about the striping. No harm, no foul.

Listen, I don't think it's worth $70K, but buyers on BaT put a sizable premium on low mileage, colorful cars. They have developed a pretty big audience of potential buyers and it only takes 2 dreamers to run up the price to $60K and above. If this was a 2 liter with all the options, yeah, I'd go north of $82K or so, crazy, but again, it only takes 2. The stoppage in bidding is typical, so I wouldn't go by that. So I'm betting on the bidding and not so much the car's value. But who the hell knows.

@Big Len - the seller ordered the heater blower hose splitter from auto atlanta and fitted the second hose. not an original part.

his photos show some images of it in an older previous state. it had only the one hose from the fan as per 1.8s from the factory before he fitted the splitter. the hoses themselves are not original. some kind of aftermarket hose replacement. originals are finely ribbed. most cars you see still with them have suffered splitting on the rib corrugations.

i know a little bit about the fans on the 74s (and i think the 73 1,7s too). only because its not in the PET. another one of those glaring omissions and errors. i chased it all down. the fan with the single hose outlet is from the VW 411/412 variant. a special fan due to engine bay space restrictions. the VW sedans and fastbacks used the twin outlet fan that is on earlier 914s. VW (or is that porsche) did an economy version on our later cars. deleted the splitter on the fan from the variant and gave us only a drivers side connection to the blower. you could order the 412 splitter and extra hose from the dealer and it may have even been fitted as standard in 75, though i have seen examples of 75 1.8s that tend to say they came standard like ours with one hose.

there is nothing there in that blower fan set up the seller has that is unique or original.
its a mod he has done in the last couple of years.





-----

i agree with you about cars from the NE and the mid west.
i have one.
and yes this blue is one.
i'm not seeing 27K miles on it but. a bit more.
but not 127K - so i am with you on that.

------

i am also with you on it not being a stripper.
that was i think harsh of dr 914. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
this one has sway bars and would have had them from new.
just like mine.
it really makes them good to drive.
i get what doc is saying, but i don't mind pole dancers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

-------
correct, it only takes 2 to have an auction.

be interesting to see.

i am certainly not adamant about my opinions.
in fact if i lived close enough to that car location and still lived in the states,
i would definitely take a look at it in person.
i would in fact be interested in it.
not because its a 27K m car, but because its probably a 70K m car in good to very good condition. you can still drive one of those and have fun with it.

a real genuine 27K mile car, you would have to put it away and not drive it.
at least at this point in time half a century later. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)