Plan of Action?, Bondo Floor? Options

[Superhawk996]

There is no “zero” datum specified that I’m aware of.

When I did mine I chose to level the top of the longitudinal both fore/aft as well as cross-car

From there you can measure your suspension mounting points to ensure chassis is square. I strongly recommend using braces that allow you to leave the doors in place to be used as gauges for checking fit.

I’ll reiterate that you should spend a significant amount of time reading the links that were provided. Read every page. By the time you have done that most of the questions you might have will probably have been addressed.

You need to be aware of what your getting into before you begin. Depending on your tools, time available, and willingness to see the car get de-constructed before it begins to improve - it may be better to sell what you have and find a better starting point.

[Eric_Shea]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[bbrock]

Ok so I think this sounds basic but it needs to be asked since a whole restoration/build is based on it. Where do I need to measure to get the car level? Is it the door sills? Suspension points? Or some other 0 point? If im going to build a jig/rotisserie etc i would like to know what my goal is for keeping it straight and square. I am aware of the pages with the measurement points but I haven't seen what my zero plane should be. Any help?

Wade

"Level" was the wrong word to use. Sorry about that. It's probably clear from the excellent advice of others that what I really meant was you wand the car solidly supported/bolted such that the body dimensions stay where they are supposed to while you are doing structural surgery. I strongly agree with @Superhawk996 's suggestion to use door braces that allow the doors to be mounted. Also, they should be adjustable. When you pull the long off, the chassis will turn to rubber and the adjustable braces will make it easy to dial in the dimension precisely. You don't have to spend a lot on them either. I went totally ghetto on mine which you can see in one of the links already posted and they worked great.

[stoneman30hotmail]

There’s just something to be said for the eternal optimism of east coast rust deniers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I believe there's some rust on the inside of the longs and everywhere else. But if they are basically solid now, what is the advantage to cutting them apart now? I.e., why not spend some months rather patching the obvious holes - making this reasonably drivable to enjoy some years and maybe still sell (for https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1974-porsche-914-61/ 13,000$?!? ) ... rather than spending some years and possibly getting in over my head and ruining an otherwise decent car.

I'm almost disappointed, I would feel better to attempt to attempt a full restore on something in lots worse shape.

[mepstein]

Because fixing cosmetic issues would be a waste of time if you aren’t going to fix the structural issues. The long is very compromised. It’s the backbone of your car and needs to be fixed. It’s meant to be the strongest part of the chassis and in its present condition, it is not. The front and rear trunks are designed to be crush zones but with the amount of damage, the long could very well be the new crush zone. The seat belt mounts are probably in very bad shape.

[Superhawk996]

There’s just something to be said for the eternal optimism of east coast rust deniers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I believe there's some rust on the inside of the longs and everywhere else. But if they are basically solid now, what is the advantage to cutting them apart now? I.e., why not spend some months rather patching the obvious holes - making this reasonably drivable to enjoy some years and maybe still sell (for https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1974-porsche-914-61/ 13,000$?!? ) ... rather than spending some years and possibly getting in over my head and ruining an otherwise decent car.

That is a judgement call only you can make.

If you’re motivated by the lure of a quick flip and easy money - there are certainly buyers flush with cash on BAT making bad decisions as proven by the link you provided.

However, if you want a car that has structural integrity and will perform as it was intended, it will need significantly more than some cosmetic patching of holes.

As an automotive engineer, I can confidently state that the vast majority hobbyists don’t understand unibody construction or repair. The strength of a unibody is significantly compromised by rust in the structural elements.

Jumping on the longs and/or tapping on sheet metal will tell you nothing significant. A 200 lb mass jumping on the longs is trivial compared to the loads placed on the chassis when braking or cornering. Likewise, as stated by Mark, there are also impact safety implications. A 914 chassis is no match for a modern car with regard to impact protection. A rusted, structurally degraded 914 is not even a match compared to a solid 914. That is a risk / benefit ratio that only you can evaluate with respect to your risk tolerance.

[TRS63]

I see it like the two previous poster..this car has huge rust issue and either you do it right and cut all these rust..or just let it/sell it. Incan tell first hand that all of this can be repaired (see my thread) and afterwards driving it is highly rewarding but you can't take shortcuts on safety.

Antoine

[930cabman]

Ok so I think this sounds basic but it needs to be asked since a whole restoration/build is based on it. Where do I need to measure to get the car level? Is it the door sills? Suspension points? Or some other 0 point? If im going to build a jig/rotisserie etc i would like to know what my goal is for keeping it straight and square. I am aware of the pages with the measurement points but I haven't seen what my zero plane should be. Any help?

Wade

"Level" was the wrong word to use. Sorry about that. It's probably clear from the excellent advice of others that what I really meant was you wand the car solidly supported/bolted such that the body dimensions stay where they are supposed to while you are doing structural surgery. I strongly agree with @Superhawk996 's suggestion to use door braces that allow the doors to be mounted. Also, they should be adjustable. When you pull the long off, the chassis will turn to rubber and the adjustable braces will make it easy to dial in the dimension precisely. You don't have to spend a lot on them either. I went totally ghetto on mine which you can see in one of the links already posted and they worked great.

I am not sure "level" is the wrong word. When working on one of my projects I used level with left/right and front/rear to get things where I wanted. It appeared to work out just fine. Sure, a frame machine is best, but as far as I know frame machines work off "level" for flat plane. Please correct me if I am wrong

[nathanxnathan]

I believe there's some rust on the inside of the longs and everywhere else. But if they are basically solid now, what is the advantage to cutting them apart now? I.e., why not spend some months rather patching the obvious holes - making this reasonably drivable to enjoy some years and maybe still sell (for https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1974-porsche-914-61/ 13,000$?!? ) ... rather than spending some years and possibly getting in over my head and ruining an otherwise decent car.

I'm almost disappointed, I would feel better to attempt to attempt a full restore on something in lots worse shape.

The car is a lot worse than you think. There looks to be almost nothing left of the long by the firewall and just forward. As it is a targa, that is the entirety holding the front to the back of the car on that side. If you were to get into the rust there you'd see there's not much worse than what you have.

[bbrock]

There’s just something to be said for the eternal optimism of east coast rust deniers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I believe there's some rust on the inside of the longs and everywhere else. But if they are basically solid now, what is the advantage to cutting them apart now? I.e., why not spend some months rather patching the obvious holes - making this reasonably drivable to enjoy some years and maybe still sell (for https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1974-porsche-914-61/ 13,000$?!? ) ... rather than spending some years and possibly getting in over my head and ruining an otherwise decent car.

I'm almost disappointed, I would feel better to attempt to attempt a full restore on something in lots worse shape.

What might be missing in the calculation is that replacing a long is not the horrible job most of us imagine until we do it. Sure, the rust we can see is mostly at the rear of the long. As others have said, you can't know how extensive it is until you cut out all the rot, but even if all we can see is all that is there, it wouldn't be much harder to replace the long than to cobble a patch together. You'll have a repair that is more sound and safe, and you'll have peace of mind knowing it is so.

I think its fine to go in hoping you won't need to replace the long, but be prepared to have to modify that plan as you cut the decay back to sound metal. Remember that it needs to be sound on both sides to weld. Solid on the outside but rusted on the inside is a recipe for blowout.

Get the chassis supported and secure, then spend a day cutting metal. Once you have it cut to sound material, fill out the order to Restoration Design according to how your luck went.

My car was way worse than yours, but I went in thinking I might get away with replacing one long, one inner suspension console, the battery tray, and front and rear trunk pans. Here's what wound up getting replaced in reality:

- Both outer longs
- one inner wheelhouse
- both door jambs
- both door sills
- complete floor
- both sail panels
- both doors
- one section of engine tray
- one outer suspension console
- rear trunk lid
- all the things I originally thought needed replaced

Granted, I could have skipped a few items just to get it to solid and road worthy, but not many.

[friethmiller]

Stoneman,

You are most welcome to take a look at my photo gallery of my recent restoration. Took me 4 years! It was a lot of work but I learned so much along the way. Missed working the metal so I just purchased another rusted out 914. I want to see if I can do it again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

https://fredriethmiller.smugmug.com/1974-Porsche-914

[brant]

many of us... have lived through the same senario...

my first 914 in 1985 was rusted out...
only I didn't know that when I bought it...
because we all get to learn the hard way.

I ended up cutting that car into pieces and selling it at swap meets.

in todays world... these cars cost more and more are saved than they used to be.
but labor and parts have gone up too.

this car is a big job.
and will cost lots of money...

it will be a good learning experience whether you fix it or not.
so many projects get started and never get finished....

I don't know you
I don't know if you follow a project through to the end... no matter what

most people in the world do not
only you know yourself...

don't be hesitant to ask yourself honestly if you have a spare 1000 hours to commit over the next 3-4 years.
if the answer is no...
then perhaps sell it as is...
perhaps buy a different car as a starting point...

the old saying is to buy the best one you can afford
that way you are enjoying driving a lot quicker if welding is not your thing...

been in your shoes before...
once I learned my lesson, I took my licks.. and bought a different 914.


and remember.. never buy another 914 without pulling the rocker covers first
brant

[stoneman30hotmail]

Get the chassis supported and secure, then spend a day cutting metal. Once you have it cut to sound material, fill out the order to Restoration Design according to how your luck went.

That's solid advice. Something like: Cut twice, order once. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[porschetub]

I believe there's some rust on the inside of the longs and everywhere else. But if they are basically solid now, what is the advantage to cutting them apart now? I.e., why not spend some months rather patching the obvious holes - making this reasonably drivable to enjoy some years and maybe still sell (for https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1974-porsche-914-61/ 13,000$?!? ) ... rather than spending some years and possibly getting in over my head and ruining an otherwise decent car.

I'm almost disappointed, I would feel better to attempt to attempt a full restore on something in lots worse shape.

The car is a lot worse than you think. There looks to be almost nothing left of the long by the firewall and just forward. As it is a targa, that is the entirety holding the front to the back of the car on that side. If you were to get into the rust there you'd see there's not much worse than what you have.

Sad but true,it is a rot box ,sad to see ,good luck to the OP

[Wadesbrain]

Stoneman,

You are most welcome to take a look at my photo gallery of my recent restoration. Took me 4 years! It was a lot of work but I learned so much along the way. Missed working the metal so I just purchased another rusted out 914. I want to see if I can do it again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

https://fredriethmiller.smugmug.com/1974-Porsche-914

Dude you are my new hero. Thank you for the smugmug portfolio. You answered so many questions I've had and now I can see the big picture.

A lot of work ahead but completely doable.

[stoneman30hotmail]

Wow guys, thanks for all the attention and references. A common theme looks to be to strip the car, put it on a frame and remove a lot of body panels. A few of the cars didn't look as bad as mine. So, I'm starting to come out of denial. I'm a bit nervous about exterior body work, but maybe if I work for the inside out, I'll have some skills by then.

I tend to be a finisher of projects. My steam hours say I have time to divert from video games. I don't do the mindless ones either. But I'm also frugal. I've been telling myself that video games are cheaper than project cars. But I couldn't resist the low cost of entry into this. I hope that the car will be worth more than the sum of the parts (and tools?). I do want to retire soon...

Ok so enough introductions. Here's some photos after playing with the new grinder and attachments:

So do we say all this pitted stuff is bad stuff? Looks like it has been coated in rust converter a while back.


I guess the floor just has to come totally out.


I've seen pictures where there is an inside piece towards outside but there looks to be a piece inside towards the inside.


I guess I need a better support strategy before cutting? I saw someone argue against a rotisserie when the car needs structural repair. So has someone made the octagon rotisserie with structural support?

[bbrock]

I believe the octagonal rotisserie is both a support frame and rotisserie, so if you have room in your shop to use one, go for it. Can't remember details of the design off the top of my head, but you should be able to easily add additional support points if needed.

The longs are key for your success. You don't want to do much panel replacement until those are solid and straight. You could probably get away with your lower firewall repair to hone your skills before diving in on the longs. I had front and rear trunk floors to repair so used those for polishing skills before hitting the longs. Just remember it is a uni-body chassis so almost all panels are structural and work together to create a strong and rigid body, but the longs are the closest component to a "frame" in the structure and receive a lot of the stresses transferred from other panels. If those aren't right when you replace floors, etc., then you are just baking problems into the structure.

The pitted metal is a little complicated and has to be evaluated on case by case. You aren't going to be able to weld into it, so if it is in a place where patches need to be done, it has to go. It will just vaporize when you try to weld. You need to get it to shiny clean metal - at least for MIG. It can still be pretty structurally sound so in some places, it might be okay to leave if you can live with it cosmetically. Most of what you are showing either has layers rotted through/flaking off, or will need to be cut out to weld in repair panels. The pitted floor along the inner long for example will likely be replaced when repairing the floor. It is much easier (and cheaper) to plug weld in a new floor piece along those flanges than butt weld in patches. Replacing a full or half floor with the RD pieces is the most satisfying part of a project like this. Don't deny yourself that joy. Seriously. That is the point you look at your project and are VERY happy.

Lastly, don't get too carried away with cutting yet. You just want to strip/cut back enough to get a good inventory of what needs replaced, and make a game plan for repairs. From there, I recommend removing and replacing pieces one at a time to keep as much structural integrity in the car as you work. If you have a nice frame bed, that's a different story.

Okay, let's let the fun begin! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[nathanxnathan]

I've seen pictures where there is an inside piece towards outside but there looks to be a piece inside towards the inside.

That looks scary as hell. You are in for a real education tackling that.

But I couldn't resist the low cost of entry into this.

You need a lower firewall inner and outer, inner fender well (usually comes with the inner part of the outer long attached), only the inner part of the inner long is available and people just run that without the outer part of the inner. You'll probably need a jack cover plate, the lower jack plate, possibly an inner suspension console, and may have to replace the outer suspension console which isn't available except from a donor. Also floors. It's not going to be cheap or easy, you're going to need a lot of tools, and it's going to take a lot of work/time.

There's a quote, something like "a cheap 914 is the most expensive one you can get". Seriously you may want to look for one in better shape.

[Cairo94507]

Do it right or don't do it at all. The worst thing one can do is a "shade tree mechanic" repair that conceals the underlying rust and some poor sucker buys the car believing it to be solid and is injured in an accident because the chassis failed.

[bbrock]

It's not going to be cheap or easy, you're going to need a lot of tools, and it's going to take a lot of work/time.

There's a quote, something like "a cheap 914 is the most expensive one you can get". Seriously you may want to look for one in better shape.

This is a really important point. If you are eager for a project and a challenge where the sense of accomplishment is the reward, this is a great car. If you just want to patch something together so you can drive it, this car is not your friend. There are cheaper and easier ways to get into a driver.