SOT: When did the hood badge change? Options

[Ansbacher]

I'm sure the Porsche bean counters made certain that EVERY single orange bar emblem was used up before the reds were distributed to the line. Therefore it is practically impossible to figure out which were the last vehicles to be orange badged.

Ansbacher

[bbrock]

Enjoying the comments,

You could buy a 911, in 1974, still with orange bars.

And then this question, why, in the first place, did 914s leave the factory with no hood badge?

Did factory not want them?
Did designers not want them?
Did they try to make the car less expensive?
Who came along and said “no badge”?
Any other reason?

That seems to be a big decision to not put any mark on the front of a car.
They spent $ (marks) to put the Porsche letters across the grill, (mine in 74 were plastic)

I wonder if prototypes had a badge?

We actually have a little insight into this from the 50 Years Porsche 914 book. This has rekindled my interest in the badge. From the book:

"In addition, as well as this lettering on on the rear, it was decided to investigate whether the use of the Porsche crest on the front hood could be approved.

This proposal already appeared as a recommendation on the agenda of the 24th program committee meeting on 20 March [1970] and was now agreed. This solution did not last long however, as the two models were released to the world as VW-Porsche 914 and VW-Porsche 914/6 shortly before the IAA."

I'm not sure who made up the "program committee" but assume the design team was well represented. So it seems those most intimately involved with the 914 determined it was worthy of the company crest, but the marketing lunkheads who I hold mostly responsible for the poor treatment the 914 has gotten for decades were already selling the car as VW-Porsche.

I've tried to image how that committee meeting discussion went and would like to think it was something like this:

"The matter of approving model nine-one-four to receive the Porsche crest is now open for discussion. Any comments?" The sound of a shoe pounding on a desk reverberates through the room. "Nein, nein, nein!! Nein crest. The car has a Volkswagen engine. It is not a Porsche. Not a real one anyway." This must have been the origin of NARP and caused quite a stir in a group sitting in the back corner of the room. A spokesman for the group responded. "Shut the fuchs up Franz. You don't know what your are talking about. We developed that engine. It is a great engine. It is worthy of Porsche." Now the room goes silent as people shift uncomfortably in their seats and look nervously around. They remember what happened the last time the committee voted against the engine design team. For a month, sandwiches and desserts from staff lunch sacks stored in the break room refrigerator went missing and were replaced with moldy cheese, shriveled sausage, and in one case, a handful of raisins so dry they may have actually been rat turds. Nobody wanted to relive that nightmare so the vote was unanimous. Yes, even Franz had to admit resistance was not `worth facing the wrath of a vengeful Type IV team.

Of course none of it mattered because the marketing team who stored their lunches in a different refrigerator, in a different break room, in a different town were not intimidated by the Type IV mobsters as they had come to be known, so continued with their bumbling plan to secure the badgeless 914's legacy as one of ridicule and controversy.

[wonkipop]

Enjoying the comments,

You could buy a 911, in 1974, still with orange bars.

And then this question, why, in the first place, did 914s leave the factory with no hood badge?

Did factory not want them?
Did designers not want them?
Did they try to make the car less expensive?
Who came along and said “no badge”?
Any other reason?

That seems to be a big decision to not put any mark on the front of a car.
They spent $ (marks) to put the Porsche letters across the grill, (mine in 74 were plastic)

I wonder if prototypes had a badge?

We actually have a little insight into this from the 50 Years Porsche 914 book. This has rekindled my interest in the badge. From the book:

"In addition, as well as this lettering on on the rear, it was decided to investigate whether the use of the Porsche crest on the front hood could be approved.

This proposal already appeared as a recommendation on the agenda of the 24th program committee meeting on 20 March [1970] and was now agreed. This solution did not last long however, as the two models were released to the world as VW-Porsche 914 and VW-Porsche 914/6 shortly before the IAA."

I'm not sure who made up the "program committee" but assume the design team was well represented. So it seems those most intimately involved with the 914 determined it was worthy of the company crest, but the marketing lunkheads who I hold mostly responsible for the poor treatment the 914 has gotten for decades were already selling the car as VW-Porsche.

I've tried to image how that committee meeting discussion went and would like to think it was something like this:

"The matter of approving model nine-one-four to receive the Porsche crest is now open for discussion. Any comments?" The sound of a shoe pounding on a desk reverberates through the room. "Nein, nein, nein!! Nein crest. The car has a Volkswagen engine. It is not a Porsche. Not a real one anyway." This must have been the origin of NARP and caused quite a stir in a group sitting in the back corner of the room. A spokesman for the group responded. "Shut the fuchs up Franz. You don't know what your are talking about. We developed that engine. It is a great engine. It is worthy of Porsche." Now the room goes silent as people shift uncomfortably in their seats and look nervously around. They remember what happened the last time the committee voted against the engine design team. For a month, sandwiches and desserts from staff lunch sacks stored in the break room refrigerator went missing and were replaced with moldy cheese, shriveled sausage, and in one case, a handful of raisins so dry they may have actually been rat turds. Nobody wanted to relive that nightmare so the vote was unanimous. Yes, even Franz had to admit resistance was not `worth facing the wrath of a vengeful Type IV team.

Of course none of it mattered because the marketing team who stored their lunches in a different refrigerator, in a different break room, in a different town were not intimidated by the Type IV mobsters as they had come to be known, so continued with their bumbling plan to secure the badgeless 914's legacy as one of ridicule and controversy.

i hate to be a contrarian.

but it was never actually a porsche (in terms of corporate entity ownership).

it was fully paid for by VW. porsche were the design consultants and paid a handsome fee for their troubles.
like all their work for VW from about 1945 to around about 1971 when r. leidling pulled the plug.............savagely.

it even had a VW type 4 model designation. what does that tell you?

porsche were piggy backing on the side of what was effectively a type 4 "karmann ghia" of sorts, except it was designed by porsche, not karmann.
(probably to karmann's disgust - i point you to the karmann cheetah?!!).

who knows what silly idea nordhoff had in mind before he died.
it was obviously not very well resolved.
a kind of family dinner table agreement as i understand reports of historians.
nordhoff was married to a member of the porsche family, a cousin or something?

so.......i don't think any of them had really thought it through.
as to what it would be.

hence the amalgam name in europe.
though they sold the 4 s through VW dealers and the 6 from porsche dealers.
which tells you something.
and neither of them got their resoective badge - on its own.
cause don't forget VW put a badge on the bonnets of their cars.

i give you the karmann ghia.





i honestly think this was nordoff's version. it had a VW badge where the porsche crest is in your speculations? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)
how it would have went looking exactly the same for all intents and purposes alongside porsches version with their badge,........well, its anyones guess. but i'd say badly.
for porsche. which is how it turned out anyway in reality when it came to the 6.

they obviously woke up to that, the marketing guys are not actually stupid.

they got it right in the USA by just calling it a cheap porsche rather than an expensive VW. thats the way i would have gone if i had been in that meeting too.

and with VW not being exactly friendly at that moment, and owning the project lock stock and barrel having paid for the entire R+D along with financing a very large percentage of the weissach test centre who can blame them for probably kyboshing the porsche crest.

i reckon that is who said no to the badge. the VW management executive sitting on the top floor. not the marketing guys.

--------

all of which does not matter one bit when it comes to the actual industrial object.
its a product of piech's driven genius. the same drive that produced the 917 and pissed everyone else around him off - severely.

thats what geniuses do?

it does not need a badge. its piech's first road car project.
as far as he was concerned he was VW and he was PORSCHE - in huge capital letters.
he barely respected his uncle and he had nothing but contempt for his cousin.
he believed he had the genes from the grandfather.
egotist - maybe? but he was right?

its taken 50 years for the crazy arguments about whats a porsche and whats a VW to be resolved. they are one and the same. at one end an everyman car every bit as good as the model T and at the other end sheer sports car perfection with every thing in between. including anachronistic arse draggers and pumped up SUVs.

the 914 is both a VW and a porsche. and why not i ask to anyone who says otherwise.

[Cairo94507]

White over Yellow Karmen Ghia (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

[bbrock]

i hate to be a contrarian.

but it was never actually a porsche (in terms of corporate entity ownership).

it was fully paid for by VW. porsche were the design consultants and paid a handsome fee for their troubles.
like all their work for VW from about 1945 to around about 1971 when r. leidling pulled the plug.............savagely.

it even had a VW type 4 model designation. what does that tell you?

Mr. Lewandoski gives us more details aided by access to company archives in his book. He shows us just how chaotic the project was after Nordhoff's death and Lotz took over. Lotz had nothing to do with any verbal agreement so went strictly on the text of the contract in hand. This gave VW full ownership of the project AND the right to market the car as Porsche regardless of what engine it contained. In fact, they explored using their own engine for both the 4 and 6 cylinder versions and building the car in Wolfsburg. Market analysis nixed that plan. The Marketing team pops up a lot in Lewandoski's accounting. The identity of the model remained in limbo throughout development with Porsche and VW having different ideas. Finally, Lewandowski has the following to say:



So there was a notion that there would be separate VW and Porsche models depending on engine fitted which might have been what Nordhoff and Porsche had in mind. That evolved into VW-Porsche regardless of engine fitted. Had the decisions of the program committee in this single meeting been honored, our four cylinder cars would have come out of the factory with the number 913 rather than 914 on the rear AND a Porsche crest on the hood. Not VW, but Porsche.

What we know from the archives is that it WAS decided to badge the cars with the Porsche crest. There is no indication a VW crest was envisioned, and in fact, it is clear from other evidence outlined in the book that Lotz wanted to cash in on the Porsche name to market the cars. What we don't know is what happened between the committee meeting and the introduction of the 914 to the world at the Frankfurt Auto Show a mere 2 months later.

Here is a photo of the VW-Porsche stand at the 914's world debut at the 1969 Frankfurt Auto show. Wait a minute... what is that I see on the hood of that 914...? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)


https://www.motorsportimages.com/photos/?ra...event_id=265530

[Superhawk996]

Badge - no badge. You can rationalize it anyway you choose but the reality is they shipped without the badge. Ferrari guys rationalize ways to put Ferrari badges on Dino’s too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

[bbrock]

Badge - no badge. You can rationalize it anyway you choose but the reality is they shipped without the badge. Ferrari guys rationalize ways to put Ferrari badges on Dino’s too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

They also didn't ship with radios, crested shift knobs, side stripes, or rear reflectors but all were available as accessories from Porsche just like the badge. I'm just curious why we don't get our panties in a wad over those? I'm just trying to figure out the rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Superhawk996]

Badge - no badge. You can rationalize it anyway you choose but the reality is they shipped without the badge. Ferrari guys rationalize ways to put Ferrari badges on Dino’s too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

They also didn't ship with radios, crested shift knobs, side stripes, or rear reflectors but all were available as accessories from Porsche just like the badge. I'm just curious why we don't get our panties in a wad over those? I'm just trying to figure out the rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I do get my panties in a wad over crested shirt knobs, Porsche logo side stripes, and rear reflectors.

Everyone gets one deviation, I’ll take the radio as my deviation.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

[SKL1]

Long article in the latest issue of 000 explaining the history of the badge.... leave it to Pete! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[bbrock]

Everyone gets one deviation, I’ll take the radio as my deviation.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

Uh, oh... I'm already over my quota. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) I have radio AND shift knob. I find the smaller vinyl knob more comfortable. Guess since I'm already in violation, I might as well go ahead and convert to EV. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

[Van B]

You guys are all great, but I gotta say, the NARP crowd gives the air cooled 911 crowd a good run for their money when it comes to shaming people for what THEY do to THEIR car lol (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif)
The real lesson here is that the family fight that resulted in the badge being omitted continues today like a family of tragic codependency.

As for me, I will end the cycle in my house and give the car the badge it should have by right and pedigree. Karmann built other Porsches too, ya know…

[Front yard mechanic]

I have the crest,the crested shift knob radio,rear reflector ,side stripes and the factory ac

[Superhawk996]

You guys are all great, but . . .

You take us far too seriously (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drunk.gif)

[bbrock]

The real lesson here is that the family fight that resulted in the badge being omitted continues today like a family of tragic codependency.

EXACTLY! We are carrying on a tradition that started well before the first 914 was even sold.

@Front yard mechanic you are brave going public with your many offenses. We'll dispatch a security detail to your home to make sure you are safe. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[Van B]

You guys are all great, but . . .

You take us far too seriously (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drunk.gif)

Eh, it’s an overarching statement regarding “purists” in general… like emo kids, they all think they’re special but to everyone else, they all look the same! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

[Superhawk996]

I have the crest,the crested shift knob radio,rear reflector ,side stripes and the factory ac

Dealer butchered AC - fixed it for you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Signed
The NARP Police
(As sung by Cheap Trick)

[Front yard mechanic]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

[wonkipop]

Badge - no badge. You can rationalize it anyway you choose but the reality is they shipped without the badge. Ferrari guys rationalize ways to put Ferrari badges on Dino’s too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

They also didn't ship with radios, crested shift knobs, side stripes, or rear reflectors but all were available as accessories from Porsche just like the badge. I'm just curious why we don't get our panties in a wad over those? I'm just trying to figure out the rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

the eurotrash established the rules in the old world.
you bought a 4 you purchased it in VW showroom and got it serviced in VW garage.
you bought a 6 and you purchased it from porsche showroom and got porsche to service it.

went down like a lead balloon in europe.

in the usa you were buying a porsche from porsche/audi and you got porsche audi to service it in their workshops.

mind you half the dealers who had a VW dealership also had a porsche audi dealership on the next block...........!

thems the rules. its not about a badge. they were already on their way to a conglomerate back then. its just that they had a product in a 914 they could not quite work out how to sell?

in the end they were most successful in the USA where they attempted to confuse the least.

i'm just going to get a piech badge made for mine and stick it on the bonnet.
then there is no confusion.
and ....... i don't care, the badge does not interest me, only the thing and the person who willed it into existence.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[wonkipop]

i hate to be a contrarian.

but it was never actually a porsche (in terms of corporate entity ownership).

it was fully paid for by VW. porsche were the design consultants and paid a handsome fee for their troubles.
like all their work for VW from about 1945 to around about 1971 when r. leidling pulled the plug.............savagely.

it even had a VW type 4 model designation. what does that tell you?

Mr. Lewandoski gives us more details aided by access to company archives in his book. He shows us just how chaotic the project was after Nordhoff's death and Lotz took over. Lotz had nothing to do with any verbal agreement so went strictly on the text of the contract in hand. This gave VW full ownership of the project AND the right to market the car as Porsche regardless of what engine it contained. In fact, they explored using their own engine for both the 4 and 6 cylinder versions and building the car in Wolfsburg. Market analysis nixed that plan. The Marketing team pops up a lot in Lewandoski's accounting. The identity of the model remained in limbo throughout development with Porsche and VW having different ideas. Finally, Lewandowski has the following to say:



So there was a notion that there would be separate VW and Porsche models depending on engine fitted which might have been what Nordhoff and Porsche had in mind. That evolved into VW-Porsche regardless of engine fitted. Had the decisions of the program committee in this single meeting been honored, our four cylinder cars would have come out of the factory with the number 913 rather than 914 on the rear AND a Porsche crest on the hood. Not VW, but Porsche.

What we know from the archives is that it WAS decided to badge the cars with the Porsche crest. There is no indication a VW crest was envisioned, and in fact, it is clear from other evidence outlined in the book that Lotz wanted to cash in on the Porsche name to market the cars. What we don't know is what happened between the committee meeting and the introduction of the 914 to the world at the Frankfurt Auto Show a mere 2 months later.

Here is a photo of the VW-Porsche stand at the 914's world debut at the 1969 Frankfurt Auto show. Wait a minute... what is that I see on the hood of that 914...? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)


https://www.motorsportimages.com/photos/?ra...event_id=265530

its fantastic when you throw up a photo like that @bbrock .

not only is there a bonnet badge on a lowly orange 4 (and it is i can tell by the wheels and hubcaps) but there is also a 917 sitting on a stand with a VW-Porsche sign in front and behind.

1969. f piech was at the height of his egotistical first moment as a late 20 year old.

it blew up on him. those kinds of photos are great. they speak volumes.

........about a future that took another 40 years to finally arrive.

i suggest the reason that a 914 did not end up with a badge is because its all about piech and in the end its the mark or evidence that he kind of disappeared or was erased for a time. its not the reason that the badge is not on the bonnet but all the arguments there would have been around how to badge it would have orbited his presence or shortly to be non presence.

thats why my car is never going to have a porsche badge on it.
piech had to endure not having the name porsche.
so i absolutely honour him by maintaining no badge.
my car is not a porsche. its a piech?

[bbrock]

i suggest the reason that a 914 did not end up with a badge is because its all about piech and in the end its the mark or evidence that he kind of disappeared or was erased for a time. its not the reason that the badge is not on the bonnet but all the arguments there would have been around how to badge it would have orbited his presence or shortly to be non presence.

@wonkipop So you are dismissing the lunch-thieving Type IV bullies hypothesis so easily? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

thats why my car is never going to have a porsche badge on it.
piech had to endure not having the name porsche.
so i absolutely honour him by maintaining no badge.
my car is not a porsche. its a piech?

Or... do we honor Piech by giving his car the badge and by extension, him the name he always wanted? Oh boy, this conundrum just never ends. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)