Anyone home build EFI for individual throttle bodies Options

[rick 918-S]

Looking for links the threads. Post the links here.

[Montreal914]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[ConeDodger]

Some of the more expensive ECU units have very good resolution that can handle the ITB’s. I’m impressed with Haltech. Others are good as well. My 240Z is using a Haltech Elite 2500. Laptop programmable, and it learns and self-tunes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIKWaMAGzrI

This my buddy Duffy with Japanese ITB’s that are 50 years old or so. He is running identical EFI but I am using a stock Datsun intake and a 70mm throttle body with Ethrottle. It runs surprisingly smooth. Mine runs better, his looks sexier. Both perform about the same.

[tygaboy]

Rick - If you're asking about ECUs, I'd recommend you look at ECU Master and Holley, too. Both are more affordable than the MoTec/Haltech level products and are quite capable.
I ran a Holley HP ECU on my LS3 with Borla 8-stack ITBs. I'm actually looking at the Holley Dominator for the Ferrari swap. Still some TBD on that as the Ferrari has some "interesting" features that may require features found only at the MoTec level.
But assuming you're talking about running a 4- or 6-cyl Porsche, you should be OK with the ECU Master sort of product.
And for a handy guy like you, there's always MegaSquirt...
Feel free to PM me if you want to talk in more detail.
Hope this helps.
Chris

[ConeDodger]

Rick - If you're asking about ECUs, I'd recommend you look at ECU Master and Holley, too. Both are more affordable than the MoTec/Haltech level products and are quite capable.
I ran a Holley HP ECU on my LS3 with Borla 8-stack ITBs. I'm actually looking at the Holley Dominator for the Ferrari swap. Still some TBD on that as the Ferrari has some "interesting" features that may require features found only at the MoTec level.
But assuming you're talking about running a 4- or 6-cyl Porsche, you should be OK with the ECU Master sort of product.
And for a handy guy like you, there's always MegaSquirt...
Feel free to PM me if you want to talk in more detail.
Hope this helps.
Chris

Rick,
Don’t listen to Chris. He thinks he can put a Ferrari motor in a 914. Boy ain’t hooked up right! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[GregAmy]

By "ITBs" are we talking about the CB Performance Weber-inspired TBs?

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/7098.htm

If so, The Dub Shop already has a bolt-in Megasquirt kit:

https://thedubshop.com/dual-throttle-body-f...gnition-type-4/

Several of us on this board have done EFI conversions, with Mega/Microsquirt being the recent favorite. Here's my conversion of my 2L D-Jet induction system to Microsquirt:

https://tgadrivel.blogspot.com/2020/03/on-m...914-part-1.html

ADHD and "TL;DR" should not select.

Search this board for other projects. Regardless of what induction system you choose, the concepts are all the same.

What's your goals?

GA

[rick 918-S]

Well this is for another future project I have had on the back burner for a long time. I am still building the Shealey. 1959 Austin Healey Bugeye with a 1300 cc Suzuki Swift GTI twin cam engine. It is mated to a Suzuki Samurai 5 sp. The engine is rated at 100 hp. it comes from a front wheel drive car and is factory FI with a single TB.

O picked this engine because it resembles the Lotus Twin Cam. I have these ITB's from a motor cycle and was thinking the look would be closer to side draft Webers.

I was looking on line for a management system I could use to run 4 ITB's. I have to admit I did not spend too much time searching before it became obvious I should ask some questions from guys that do crazy stuff. Like Chis for instance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Hey Chris, Was that a stand alone System you had with the Borla you adapted or did it come as a system? Would it run 4 ITB's?

[mb911]

I plan to use the Holley terminator x and use my Webers as throttle bodies over the winter. My engine was MFI so I will use those ports for the injectors.

[tygaboy]

Rick - The short story is that most any aftermarket ECU can run engines up to 8 cylinders. ITB or not, really doesn't matter as it's the # of cylinders/injectors, not how the air gets into them.
The Holley HP ran the 8 ITB system (which was cable operated) and the only reason I went to the Dominator was because I needed drive-by-wire capability when I swapped back to the standard intake.
You need to spec what capabilites you need then look at what each particular ECU supports. My guess is you aren't doing anything fancy and a basic system will work just fine for your application.

The Holley HP is more than capable of running the set up you're targeting. Overkill, really. And as Ben @mb911 mentions, the Holley Terminator is another option - and it's less expensive than the HP.
For your application, I'd take a look at MegaSquirt, too.
In the end, it's about tuning and access to info and getting help. There's a vibrant MS community and the folks are super helpful.
Holley support, both from Holley and the user community is also excellent, and there are a ton of tuners to choose from, if you want to go that way vs. doing it yourself. But it's heavy on the V8, hot rod, drag racing end of things.
Join the MegaSquirt forum and post up what you're trying to do. I bet you get all sorts of info that'll help you decide.

[mepstein]

I'm using electronic itb's with motec. I have no clue what to do with it but Peter Dawe's son Kelly can program it in his sleep so that's what we are using.

[rick 918-S]

Thanks guys. I really want a self tuning system. Thanks for the direction. I would think by now there should some options. I think back to the days when the conversation was all about building boards and having lap tops connected. And driving down the road tuning the car for days.

[r_towle]

Take a look at what cb performance is selling now.
4 cylinder, tunable etc etc

[targa72e]

I ended up with a unused magasquirt system with a bunch of parts I purchased. I have a TWM ITB system I could use but wanted to try something different. Wanted a short throttle. I decided to make some adapters and mount Triumph ITB's right to heads. Plan on using a later Porsche plenum intake (I will have to narrow a bit) with resonance tuning above throttles. Have just worked out he hard part of adapter to mount Triumph throttles directly to heads. Engine it will be going on is 2.5 long stroke with MOD S cams. Currently running Zenith cards with 34MM venturi and appropriate jetting. Will dyno with Carbs then switch to ITB's and dyno again. I will start a separate thread once I am a little further along. Pics of where I am at today.



john

[mepstein]

Thanks guys. I really want a self tuning system. Thanks for the direction. I would think by now there should some options. I think back to the days when the conversation was all about building boards and having lap tops connected. And driving down the road tuning the car for days.

VEMS has a self tuning feature. Pretty reasonably priced as well.

[GregAmy]

Micro/Mega doesn't "self tune" but it will real-time correct based on wideband input to a target table. You'll then take the logs and run them through Megalog Viewer HD analyze and correct the VE table(s) to your desire. It can do that for you if you accept the analysis.

I'm not a fan of auto-correct, where you let it constantly adjust the tables; I'm too worried about some kind of systems failure (wideband) where all of a sudden it's making table changes based on bad input.

However, I do use logging and Megalog/analyze a lot, and my tables are at the point where I'm comfortable giving the ECU +/- 5% leeway to make real-time fueling adjustments without writing permanent changes to the VE tables.

[JamesM]

Micro/Mega doesn't "self tune" but it will real-time correct based on wideband input to a target table. You'll then take the logs and run them through Megalog Viewer HD analyze and correct the VE table(s) to your desire. It can do that for you if you accept the analysis.

I'm not a fan of auto-correct, where you let it constantly adjust the tables; I'm too worried about some kind of systems failure (wideband) where all of a sudden it's making table changes based on bad input.

However, I do use logging and Megalog/analyze a lot, and my tables are at the point where I'm comfortable giving the ECU +/- 5% leeway to make real-time fueling adjustments without writing permanent changes to the VE tables.

It is worth mentioning that Megasquirt can also be "auto tuned"

Tunerstudio (at least the full paid versions) will auto tune your Megasquirt to AFR targets without having to do log collection however it does still require you have a device connected running tunerstudio while you are doing it.

Thats really the main difference with Holley systems as far as that feature goes, with Megasquirt the autotune has to be done with a laptop connected, with Holley while it needs to be configured with a laptop, the actual driving portion of the autotune can be done without it.

For me its not a big deal as i dont like autotune running all the time anyways as if any part of the system start acting up while autotune is enabled it may mask the issue while pulling your overall tune completely out of whack. In addition to the autotune algorithms never being perfect and im just a control freak/perfectionist. Autotune always struggles with transient conditions especially where 02 reading latency settings are not known/perfectly dialed in, so if you are on/off the throttle a lot while performing it you can wind up developing reach/lean spots in certain parts of your map. I would guess given the user friendly nature of the Holley system that they probably have some logic coded in to ignore data around transients but I have never examined a fuel map post Holley autotune to see how well it does.

These are issues that a normal user most likely would never notice on their AFR gauge as they happen in an instant and gauges tend to be dampened but that you might see in a data log or by examining the fuel map. Again, perfectionist (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif)

That is another issue of Megasquirt that isnt frequently mentioned, because of the level of control you have over literally everything, if you are a perfectionist its hard to ever stop tweaking with it.

and on that subject, and looping back to the OPs question about ITBs...

Most aftermarket injection system either operate using some form of Speed Density algorithm (Map sensor based load determination) or Alpha-N (throttle position based load) or allow you to chose between the two. Generally people will run Alpha-N with ITBs due to the limited range over which ITBs will produce measurable manifold vacuum BUT Alpha-N is a much rougher estimation of load as calculating load using just the throttle position doesent measure what the engine is actually doing at any given time. This tends to manifest itself as drivability issues at low or zero throttle angles and cant account for different engine loads under the same throttle position like changing alternator or AC loads at idle. Measuring load via manifold vacuum is far more accurate where that vacuum signal exists. Modern firmware variants for Megasquirt have a hybrid mode that blends Speed Density and Alpha-N algorithms via a switching table which results in having the best of both worlds and increases the fueling accuracy and drivability when running ITBs. That being said it adds another layer of significant complexity to setting up your initial tune as you have to establish a TPS/vacuum transition map in addition to your ignition and fueling maps. Dialing in 3x three dimensional maps that all impact each other is a lot of data points to manage. Given Megasquirt is already pretty complex without this it may be a lot to ask of someone to figure out on their first build. I have setup a car using this, the results are amazing but it is somewhat time consuming.

[horizontally-opposed]

I'm using electronic itb's with motec. I have no clue what to do with it but Peter Dawe's son Kelly can program it in his sleep so that's what we are using.

Super curious if this setup would work under a factory airbox? Looks like it might, given your filter setup.

[ClayPerrine]

Micro/Mega doesn't "self tune" but it will real-time correct based on wideband input to a target table. You'll then take the logs and run them through Megalog Viewer HD analyze and correct the VE table(s) to your desire. It can do that for you if you accept the analysis.

I'm not a fan of auto-correct, where you let it constantly adjust the tables; I'm too worried about some kind of systems failure (wideband) where all of a sudden it's making table changes based on bad input.

However, I do use logging and Megalog/analyze a lot, and my tables are at the point where I'm comfortable giving the ECU +/- 5% leeway to make real-time fueling adjustments without writing permanent changes to the VE tables.

It is worth mentioning that Megasquirt can also be "auto tuned"

Tunerstudio (at least the full paid versions) will auto tune your Megasquirt to AFR targets without having to do log collection however it does still require you have a device connected running tunerstudio while you are doing it.

Thats really the main difference with Holley systems as far as that feature goes, with Megasquirt the autotune has to be done with a laptop connected, with Holley while it needs to be configured with a laptop, the actual driving portion of the autotune can be done without it.

For me its not a big deal as i dont like autotune running all the time anyways as if any part of the system start acting up while autotune is enabled it may mask the issue while pulling your overall tune completely out of whack. In addition to the autotune algorithms never being perfect and im just a control freak/perfectionist. Autotune always struggles with transient conditions especially where 02 reading latency settings are not known/perfectly dialed in, so if you are on/off the throttle a lot while performing it you can wind up developing reach/lean spots in certain parts of your map. I would guess given the user friendly nature of the Holley system that they probably have some logic coded in to ignore data around transients but I have never examined a fuel map post Holley autotune to see how well it does.

These are issues that a normal user most likely would never notice on their AFR gauge as they happen in an instant and gauges tend to be dampened but that you might see in a data log or by examining the fuel map. Again, perfectionist (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif)

That is another issue of Megasquirt that isnt frequently mentioned, because of the level of control you have over literally everything, if you are a perfectionist its hard to ever stop tweaking with it.

and on that subject, and looping back to the OPs question about ITBs...

Most aftermarket injection system either operate using some form of Speed Density algorithm (Map sensor based load determination) or Alpha-N (throttle position based load) or allow you to chose between the two. Generally people will run Alpha-N with ITBs due to the limited range over which ITBs will produce measurable manifold vacuum BUT Alpha-N is a much rougher estimation of load as calculating load using just the throttle position doesent measure what the engine is actually doing at any given time. This tends to manifest itself as drivability issues at low or zero throttle angles and cant account for different engine loads under the same throttle position like changing alternator or AC loads at idle. Measuring load via manifold vacuum is far more accurate where that vacuum signal exists. Modern firmware variants for Megasquirt have a hybrid mode that blends Speed Density and Alpha-N algorithms via a switching table which results in having the best of both worlds and increases the fueling accuracy and drivability when running ITBs. That being said it adds another layer of significant complexity to setting up your initial tune as you have to establish a TPS/vacuum transition map in addition to your ignition and fueling maps. Dialing in 3x three dimensional maps that all impact each other is a lot of data points to manage. Given Megasquirt is already pretty complex without this it may be a lot to ask of someone to figure out on their first build. I have setup a car using this, the results are amazing but it is somewhat time consuming.

I have MS3Pro for my ITB build. I am working with @partsguy22 to assist in the programming for it. He has done megasquirt installs on 356s with ITBs.

We are even going to wire up traction control that can be turned down/off by the driver.

Clay

[NARP74]

Eric at PMB has a couple of these systems ready to go. One was running at the RRC. One was on display in the lobby, and several in the build stages in the back.

[914werke]

Eric at PMB has a couple of these systems ready to go. One was running at the RRC. One was on display in the lobby, and several in the build stages in the back.

Not to speak for Eric but I believe those were Holley based systems not MS.