Help me find my oil leak! Options

[bkrantz]

I have wondered the same. Is this an application for a gasket in a tube? very sparingly of course.

No. It’s an application to use the proper T4 oil pump (with a pinned or peened idler shaft). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

T4 pump OD is 2.7565” using a smaller OD T1 pump and gasket in a tube is just a cobble job in my opinion.

OK, what is the proper pump choice in 2023?

[Superhawk996]

I have wondered the same. Is this an application for a gasket in a tube? very sparingly of course.

No. It’s an application to use the proper T4 oil pump (with a pinned or peened idler shaft). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

T4 pump OD is 2.7565” using a smaller OD T1 pump and gasket in a tube is just a cobble job in my opinion.

OK, what is the proper pump choice in 2023?

There are plenty of usable T4 pumps floating around still in good shape. Unless the stock T4 pump ingested shrapnel or pumped abrasives like rust, oil pumps don’t really wear much. The main issue with T4 pumps is potential for movement of the idler shaft if the engine is over heated. This can be remedied by peening or pinning the idler shaft to the T4 pump body.

I’m well aware this flies in the face of others that use and recommend T1 pumps. They “work” in the most generic sense. I get it, T4 pumps aren’t being made in mass and can’t be purchased new. Well, there are some CNC billet versions being made in Germany but unfortunately those are expensive and have 30mm gears which is overkill for a stock engine.

The problem from an engineering perspective is T1 pumps don’t fit properly. At best, they are prone to leak. At worst they compromise oil pressure when the OD is too small and bleeds oil out between the case and the pump body right back to the sump.

Wasn’t that long ago this happened to another member on the forum suffering from warm oil pressure issues until he swapped the problem T1 pump for another T1 pump that had a couple thousandths larger OD closer to what the T4 oil pump is.

Honestly, it’s a choose your poison thing. Take the time to find a good T4 pump or deal with T1 issues.

I’m not suggesting you change your pump given it’s what you already have and have probably tossed the stock T4 pump.. But as others have suggested, it may be contributing to your oil leaking. It’s a catch 22 because if you pile in more gasket sealant or try to stack paper gaskets behind the steel cover - it increases internal pump bypass resulting in lower output pressure. Especially so if someone were to try to use thick stuff like RTV as sealant.

Probably the best thing you can do is clean up and dry what you have. Make sure the mounting surface where the pump mates to the case is flat, smooth and sealing properly. Address the front seal while you’re in there. Then use some UV dye in the oil when you fire it back up. Immediately watch that are as best you can and after the 1st drive to see if it’s still leaking and where it’s coming from before it gets to blowing around too much. Visibility in that area sucks with the fan shroud installed - I get it.

[Superhawk996]

I think you have oil going in the direction of the yellow arrow - collecting at the blue stand off and dripping down to the motor mount via the zip ties. It also drips down the black wiring and drips toward the center of the engine.

I don’t think the front crank seal is all that wet to be running down to the blue area. The tell would be if there is a stream of oil in the valley the red arrow is pointing to. From what I can see, I think the red valley is pretty dry.

If it’s coming from the oil pump area via the yellow route. Then I think it’s worth checking the gasket between the case and the oil pump. What is the thick wet looking black stuff? (Purple arrow) Is that a paper gasket or is that RTV between the pump body and the case? RTV won’t be enough to hold back pressurized oil that is between the T1 oil pump OD and the case ID.

The head scratcher is where did the oil in the filter top come from? Is the oil filter tight enough?

[cassmcentee]

Is it possible to have a Wobble in the Crankshaft?
If so, could it cause the seal to have blow-by?

[Shivers]

Is it possible to have a Wobble in the Crankshaft?
If so, could it cause the seal to have blow-by?

It is possible, but you would feel the engine shaking itself apart.

[BeatNavy]

My two cents from my experience here: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=354879

I thought I was very thorough sealing the T1 pump and cover to the case when I replaced it last year. I don't have an OP gauge (I probably should have one) but seemingly had no issues, and the oil leak was gone. Last week I changed the oil, however, and I did see signs of oil collecting at the bottom of the cover again. Not to the point of slinging oil around, or as bad as @bkrantz has here (yet) but still frustrating (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Until I read this thread I didn't know that the OD of the T1 pump is undersized. I think @rfinegan was inferring that in one of his posts earlier in my thread, but I don't think I picked up on it. On the plus side, I do think these sealing nuts likely helped reduce, if not eliminate, the leaks: https://vwparts.aircooled.net/8mm-Self-Seal...111-115-161.htm

Bottom line: yeah, it seems these T1 pumps are very very very hard to seal, as George pointed out. I'll consider swapping it out for a serviceable T4 pump next time engine is out.

On a side note, I remember going down a rabbit hole on the Samba WRT the intense debate over advantages and disadvantages of 30mm pumps vs. 26mm. After reading that I seem to recall wishing I'd gone the 26mm route...

[Geezer914]

If your oil pump cover was leaking, oil would be dripping from the bottom of the cover. Make sure the steel cover is perfectly flat. Get a sheet of glass and place a piece of 400 grit wet/dry paper face up with a little oil and lap the surface of the cover until it is perfectly flat. Then finish off with 600 paper. use a thin paper gasket and NO sealant! Torque to spec.

[bkrantz]

More thanks, everyone.

During assembly, I used a skim of case sealer on all surfaces and gaskets. There is no RTV anywhere. The black line under the pump cover is actually a fiber gasket that came with the pump kit.

[searunner]

As I described in my build thread, last year, once I got the engine running, I noticed significant oil drops (or more) after each drive. With winter in full throttle, I decided to drop the motor, and see about fixing the leak.

Here's the view of the front. Maybe you can see some oil.

The termostat, pulley bolt hole is NOT blind- and can leak a big quantity of oil
in your photo the pulley appear corectly in place BUT a control can be easy to do

[bkrantz]

OK, more info. And in my quest for the right answer, I embrace all shame and reveal potential stupid. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif)

I took off the blower hub. The area behind the flange actually looks dry.

[bkrantz]

I confirmed this by running a Qtip around the base of the flange (on the engine side). A but of dirt but no oil. I assume if oil leaked past the front seal, this would be wet.

[bkrantz]

First stupid: when I went to unscrew the oil filter, it was barely tight. I mean, all it took to start unscrewing it was gentle finger grip.

[bkrantz]

No obvious leak point around the pump cover.

[bkrantz]

No leaks around the studs.

[bkrantz]

Here's the cover off. No dramatic scoring. Also no gasket. I am trying to remember if I did this on purpose. Stupid #2?

[bkrantz]

And the pump itself.

BTW, if I need to pull this, any clever way to extract it from the case?

[iankarr]

I have the same oil pump cover and it was farrrr from flat out of the box. Took me an hour of wet sanding it on glass to get it flat. If you need to pull the pump, one of these works well. Just go slowly or the t-bar bends…
https://www.amazon.com/Puller-Aircooled-Mot...bf6a&nodl=1

[cassmcentee]

Great news!
Nothing crazy

[930cabman]

Here's the cover off. No dramatic scoring. Also no gasket. I am trying to remember if I did this on purpose. Stupid #2?

No gasket, but it does appear some residue of a sealer. When she was running how was the oil pressure, cold and hot? What pump is this?

[bkrantz]

Great news!
Nothing crazy

But perhaps pretty dumb. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif)