Beck 550 spyder, AX Candidate? Options

[Joseph Mills]

Looking at some of the specs on this kit made me start thinking how good a candidate it might be for auto crossing.

As far as I know Beck is the only kit that has a hand made tubular frame instead of a VW frame. Maybe that accounts for it's lightweight?

Something around 1200 pounds total! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif)

We all know that light cars turn corners fast, and with even meager HP it's going to scoot in a straight line.

Suspension... well, maybe that is the bugaboo... Volkswagen. VW's on an autocross course are always scary with their positive camber from the swing axles. Maybe limit the amount of travel? Are there after market handling kits for such? Or additional link systems that bolt up?

Would a kit car be up to handling the torque and twisting forces of AX?

Thoughts? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif)

[grantsfo]

A guy drives a replica in the Redwood Region in CA and does ok. I think a replica that had a decent sized engine, well tuned suspension and some race tires could take TTOD.

[Mueller]

a fellow local 914 owner has one of these kits with a dyno proven 300hp 3.6 /6 in it......

I went for a ride in it once....never again (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/screwy.gif)


this was me after the ride, kissing the pavement (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/pray.gif) , glad to be alive......

[Joseph Mills]

QUOTE (Mueller @ Aug 11 2005, 08:54 PM)

a fellow local 914 owner has one of these kits with a dyno proven 300hp 3.6 /6 in it...... I went for a ride in it once....never again  :screwy: this was me after the ride, kissing the pavement  :worship: , glad to be alive......

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/chairfall.gif)


Well said. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)


Even 140HP would give you 1/8.5 HP/weight factor! Way more than you need for AX.

300HP? I can't imagine. One pony for every four pounds. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/unsure.gif)

[Mueller]

QUOTE

300HP? I can't imagine. One pony for every four pounds

70mph or so with large f'n redwood trees on both sides of the road....driver nails the gas, we go sideways from the tires lighting up....

[Jake Raby]

I supply engines for tghem all the time... I used to build many of the kits to resale before I was so swamped with engine work.

Incredible, absolutely the most exhilerating 0-60 I have ever seen from a 200HP vehicle.

I have some ultimate engine/tranny combos for them... The key to those combos is super broad power with mid to upper range power.

The best Spyder I have seen comes from Vintage Spyders... But they are not very good business people, always late on delivery and full of excuses... But it is built on a space frame and is much more rigid than the Beck- I have driven tons of each and the Vintage is a great car.

Here is a pic of a RAT powered 550 at Roebling Road http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/custome...ozzi/index.html

Awesome toy- no doubt.

BTW- The Beck is on a tubular frame- but uses the VW torsion assembly for rear suspension, it looks very close to the original 550 Spyder... But its kinda cheesy. The Beck is made in Brazil and imported into the states mostly assemled when it gets here except for the engine and XMSN. I know where 4 Beck kits are that are brand new and never assembled-

The Vintage is on a space frame much like a modern street rod. These guys have already correctly adapted a 901 sideshift tranny into their cars and I have 5-6 different customers with RAT engines and this combo.... None of them have the balls to stay in the throttle very long, some have admitted they are afraid of full throttle.

None of the 550s are built on VW pans-since they are mid engined it would be very difficult to do.

check these sites
www.spyderclub.com
www.vintagespyders.com
www.spyderowners.com

look on my site for some pics of "The Mighty Spyder". Its a coachbuilt aluminum bodied Spyder with a really sweet custom tubular frame thats also pictured here This is gonna be a 9,000 RPM, destroked, 105mm bored, Titanium rodded, twin plugged beast.

[Joseph Mills]

Yeah, I saw the Mighty Spyder. Actually, it's what got me started to thinking about Spyders again. That will be a great car!

The Beck Spyders appear to be a bit closer to my budget and can be ordered in any stage of completion. Maybe the Vintage can too although it doesn't reflect that on their site.

I noticed even the Vintage coil over has a VW swing axle. Evidently they can be made to work very well. Just seems like a step backwards.

For the guys that are "hesitant" to floor it, tell'em you have a 300# high performance ballast kit available for custom installation. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

Thanks for all the info.

[Jake Raby]

Don't let the swing axle fool you! With the midship engine the swing axle performs very well in the handling department and actually many have professed that the swing axle cars have less body roll than the few "True IRS" set ups out there.

I have even seen the 901 converted to a swing axle ($$$$) for one of these applications.

Nothing wrong with a Beck at all.. The Becks that I have a lead on need the engine, tranny and thats it.. They are already painted, have full interior and are even wired... Install the front axle, XMSN and engine and you are done.

[Joseph Mills]

I'm guessing limited action for the swing axle.

Not a bad thing. SPARKY has 2" of travel left. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif)

Is there an AX class for replicars?

As I recall these are registered as VWs?

GSP? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[Trekkor]

Great little car...I'd like to have one, please.

KT

[anthony]

For AX what class are you going to race in? It's not a real Porsche so it doesn't qualify for PCA AX except for the fun class. I'm sure that it would be in some hideous SCCA class with dedicated race cars.

AX is more fun IMO when you have a lot of close competition in your class.

[DBCooper]

Actually the Vintage Spyders are full IRS rears, much better suited for autocrossing. The problem with all the Spyders is the suspension and tire clearances. We don't actually have any real tire clearance problems with the 914's because you can always flare them and they'll still look true and good. You don't much want to cut up your classic looking $25K kitcar though, so you're stuck with tiny 5.5" wheels, which don't contain 200 hp all that well. At any speed. It's also hard to modifiy the suspension since they won't even accept 2.5" dropped front spindles because of the tire clearance problems.

If anyone's really interested the Beck cars are made in Brazil by Chamonix (www.chamonixcars.com.br - let me know if you want anything translated), and last time I was down there you could buy a used one for US8-10K, about half the price they go for up here. I actually thought about loading up a container with three or four of them. Chamonix also makes absolutely gorgeous 356, Super 90 and Speedster replicas, including a really cool stripped down club racer (the Speedster 356R). I think Beck is beginning to import some of the 356's now, but the explanation a few years ago for why he wasn't was that they were too expensive and he didn't think he could sell many. The detail on those cars was absolutely perfect.

[ConeDodger]

The RR guy is using a Type 4 motor. I have always admired them and I was looking at the car during a break. He did quite well with it...

Rob

[d914]

that brazilian company ( i think) also has a 550r, more than enough tire and this...Kinda cool....

[URY914]

Gunnar Racing did a batch of 550's too. but they used T-1's in them. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif)

P

[rhodyguy]

you could make a whole lot more money finding a handful of cheap Pumas and shipping them north. do the swing arm cars use something similar to the camber bar that was the rage for swing axel cars in the 60s and 70s?

k

[DBCooper]

QUOTE (rhodyguy @ Aug 12 2005, 07:21 AM)

you could make a whole lot more money finding a handful of cheap Pumas and shipping them north. do the swing arm cars use something similar to the camber bar that was the rage for swing axel cars in the 60s and 70s? k

Hey, anything can go into that container, just has to be sans motor and tranny to be considered "parts" so you can license it up here later as a homebuilt. But you need to know that those Pumas rattled like crazy after they'd spent a few years on cobblestone streets, and unless you speak Portuguese getting parts would be pretty much impossible.

The Becks don't come with camber compensators, but I think they have limit straps, and I know some people have adapted the later mostly european "z-bars" to the rear too. Chamonix also makes a 550 with fuel injected early Passat longitudinal drivetrain, radiator totally hidden up front. It's really nicely done, not authentic, but with all the wasser hot rod stuff you could make that one just about as fast as you'd ever want to go.

[lapuwali]

On the swing axle problem, Formula Vee cars have used mid-engined swing-axle rear suspensions for decades, and there have been a lot of clever solutions to the "jacking effect" problem. I have to disagree with Jake that just going mid-engined solves the swing axle issue. I've witnessed a couple of cars that didn't have anything to deal with this problem in a mid-engined configuration, and they were pretty much undrivable. The outside wheel would go 15-20 degrees positive camber on the gas.

With swing axles, as the rear of the car rolls, it levers itself on the outside wheel's contact patch. The body leans on the outside spring, which resists the roll. The mass wants to keep moving, so it will shove the top of the outside tire outwards, pivoting on the contact patch, which causes the axle to tilt upwards, which forces the transaxle and everything attached to it to rise, which all causes a dramatic positive camber on both rear wheels.

The easiest "solution" is to run a lot of negative camber statically, but that compromises straight line grip, and only works up to a point.

The next idea is to use a Z-bar, which looks like a sway bar, but is a Z shape in plan, rather than a U shape. This means if both wheels go up or down together, the bar will resist this. If the outside wheel goes up, the inside wheel is also pulled up, so it ends up trying to keep the transaxle mass from rising.

The better, but more complicated, idea is to develop a rear suspension that has zero resistance to roll. The easiest way to to this is to have one coilover mounted above the transaxle horizontally, with pushrods from the hubs "squeezing" the coilover through bellcranks in bump. The coilover is ONLY attached to the bellcranks, so if you lift one wheel, the pushrod moves in, the coilover moves sideways, and the other pushrod moves out, pushing the opposite wheel down. Good suspension, but no resistance to roll. The body and transaxle will simply pivot along the car's center of mass, so the outside wheel can roll inwards, rather than outwards. In practice, it usually ends up staying more or less vertical.

The latter idea is better than the former, because you still need to have some "regular" suspension with the Z-bar, and that suspension will unavoidably provide some roll resistance, so it only reduces the jacking, it doesn't eliminate it.

[Jake Raby]

Really... I never said that neing midengined SOLVES the issue, but rather that it makes it less notable on the same road and speeds. I can tell you that now based on driving my swing axle beetle through twisties with the weight hanging off the ass end and a swing axle just like the Beck 550 uses.

These changes really are not needed. Having driven dozens of these cars I can say that they handled very similar (on the same roads) to my 914 with full Konis, full cage, Mueller's bearings, gusseted trailing arms 180 pound springs and front and rear sway bars.... But the 914 isn't lightened an ounce and has the cage as well.

You really have to drive one to see just how little they really need to handle very well.

The only issue I foresee in AX is the fact that the car is so light that it will push the front wheels under full power- Hell I have that problem in my beetle.

lapuwali, have you ever driven a 550 Replica??

FWIW- I have been blessed enough to drive the real Mccoy and can say that the replica was better in every performance category, even with the 4 cammer...

[lapuwali]

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Aug 12 2005, 10:53 AM)

The only issue I foresee in AX is the fact that the car is so light that it will push the front wheels under full power- Hell I have that problem in my beetle. lapuwali, have you ever driven a 550 Replica??

Nope. Have you ever driven an F-Vee? How about a FIAT 850? An early Triumph Spitfire? All swing axle cars, all with more or less the same handling problems, all fixable the same way.

No need to get into a pissing contest over this. I know what I've seen, and I understand the theory, and I've seen cars fixed. The F-Vee is pretty much the pinnacle of handling technology when it comes to mid-engined, swing-axle cars, so it's a very good idea, IMHO, to look at what works on them when trying to work out an ultimate swing-axle rear suspension.