New Engine Time!, First drive on 4/23/23! Options

[DRPHIL914]

I've been driving the car, and learning the new engine and new tuning system.

I did a 180 mile drive to Philly and back when I needed some stuff from Bus Depot for my bus project. And last weekend I did a 300 miles drive on Saturday and showed the car at Bug Out VA. I was the only 914, and got lots of questions about the engine.

I did datalogging for the entire 300 mile trip. I'm just scratching the surface of the Terminator X ECU. The engine comes with what they call a "hand terminal" that plugs into the canbus jack. This is a super handy tool that I ignored for most of my break in.

Right now I don't have it run through the tunnel - and that's something I intend to do! Its just too handy a tool not to. Its a data logger, but it also has a gauge cluster so you can see what the ECU is seeing.

I also bought a canbus splitter so that I can plug my laptop into the ECU and leave the hand unit plugged in.

With a little over 600 miles on the engine, its time for and oil change and valve adjustment. And I need to get the data logs back to @eric_shea for evaluation (which I will do when the CANBUS to USB cable I ordered comes in).

There are a couple things that I think can be improved. the gas mileage is about 18 mpg with me cruising during break in. That MAY improve on its own as the engine tightens up. But I bet there is improvements to be made at idle and off throttle.

There has also been some rev-hang, where the engine will stay around 2000 rpm for a moment when I push in the clutch instead of dropping immediately back to idle. At first I suspected the IAC was adding air - and I think that was Eric's opinion too. But driving with the hand unit in the cabin with me, I could see that the IAC was fully closed. The hand unit is REALLY handy! Playing with the car tonight (and watching the TPS data on the hand unit) I suspect the issue is mechanical and not part of the tune. On throttle close, the TPS was showing the throttle sticking at ~22% open instead of closing. I'm almost sure that is the cause of my rev hang.

The difference between fully closed and 20ish% is under 1mm of travel. It may need a helper spring, or there may be some slight bind in the throttle body sync.

Closing the throttle at idle will hopefully cure the rev hang, and give me a little boost to mileage. I fully expect that this motor should be able to get at least 25mpg when cruising down the freeway.

As to driving impressions - this motor is a beast! I was accelerating up hill in 5th on the freeway, doing well over 90, with head temps that never got over 350 and the throttle was never wide open. You don't need to drop a gear to pass traffic. And you CAN pass traffic.

I've still not done any 2nd or 3rd gear pulls at WOT yet. That will happen after the oil change and adjustment.

There is NO drama starting the car. Either cold or hot, it starts right up.

If you are thinking about getting one. STOP THINKING. Call PMB and get the ball rolling.

Zach

I've talked to Eric about using this ECU/TB/FI set up from Holly on my 2.1, i think i would benefit, he was still getting some of the moundting hardware done for the new sensors etc, that was back before they completed and shipped your motor, i've been saving up $$ to get the rest of the system and thinking about which TB set up to use, proabably similar to yours so i might be picking your brain once i get my stuff ordered from PMB. - are those the Jenvey ITB's on your motor?

Phil

[VaccaRabite]

I've talked to Eric about using this ECU/TB/FI set up from Holly on my 2.1, i think i would benefit, he was still getting some of the moundting hardware done for the new sensors etc, that was back before they completed and shipped your motor, i've been saving up $$ to get the rest of the system and thinking about which TB set up to use, proabably similar to yours so i might be picking your brain once i get my stuff ordered from PMB. - are those the Jenvey ITB's on your motor?

Phil

Yes they are the Jenvey ITBs. Jenvey also has a Heritage set now that looks more like a set of IDF carbs. I know Eric had a LOT of trouble getting the ITBs and the Jenvey set were not his first choice, but we waited something like 8 months for the first choice set to come off back order and it never happened. I forget what brand he wanted to use - it may well have been Holley. But the Jenveys have been flawless. Zero complaints.

Buying everything as a kit is the way to go IMO - especially knowing PMB is standing behind you. There is still tinkering and fine tuning. But honestly if I was not the person that I am I could happily just run this engine as is. My nature to mess with stuff just won't let me do it yet.

Zach

[JmuRiz]

Very nice, I'm sure Aaron's guy (Bergman) will be picking your brain when he starts the install next week.

Engine is delivered and the car is now ready to meet the drivetrain (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Root_Werks]

Some great driving impressions and thoughts!

I've found over the years I'd rather have an engine with the torque equivalant to the side profile of a kitchen table thank a peaky high-hp gotta rev-it engine.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[Eric_Shea]

Thanks Zach for the real-(914)world feedback. Kelly reported in that Orion's car is tearing up the mountain roads in CA and is pretty phenomenal. We're happy to hear the results and, as Ken's stated... we've been through a ton of development model$ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) We're super happy with this platform. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

To answer a few lingering questions; Holley is having a fun time keeping up with the demand on these new ECU's. Self learning has been what everyone's been asking and waiting for it appears. This comes down to the various components as well. The IAC's were on BO for "months" and I finally gave up and ordered a Haltech unit for these builds. The Haltech systems had a design flaw that didn't allow them to work well at all. The remote housing only allowed the IAC plunger to move about 1/8". This was probably good for 30-40 RPM not the 300-400 we were looking for. OF COURSE, the minute we send them off with the Haltechs we a ) find the issue and b ) the Holley units came back in stock.

ITB's - We absolutely love the Jenvey stuff. Initially, they seemed to be more expensive but, when we learned they came with most everything needed and, the machining and their customer service is second to none... it became a more obvious choice than the gaggle of poorly cast import options. The first 5 systems were built with the Jenvey IDF platform. The only issue I've found with these ITB's is the "base" is an IDF bolt on but the top is not. We use the Vintage Speed Knecht style filter to bring a little "Porsche Vibe" back into the engine compartment and, adapters had to be made to have them fit. The following 6 builds currently in-house will have the Heritage series that Zach mentions. These are straight up IDF copies with injectors hiding in the float bowls and the TPS hidden in the bodies. Problem = Solution.

Back to IAC's a bit... we have an IAC, a MAP and 4 individual throats to deal with. Getting these modern components to operate with a vintage style ITB setup was another challenge. We prototyped many base plates. Some for the bottom of the ITB's and some for the base of the manifolds. We came up with a perfect solution all contained within the manifolds. The IAC isn't picky as to where it delivers the goods. The MAP likes to draw a more even signal. The IAC is ported up top and the MAP is ported at the base and yes... the prototyping with the base plates showed major differences in signal stability within that 4-5" on the manifold. The manifolds went on the mill and ports were added.

We knew there would be a few minor items to tick off on Zach's build as both of the previous installs were done in-house here at the shop. We weren't that concerned about the tune because we ported over the aforementioned "Orion Thorson" tune that we used as our test vehicle with mountain and city driving here in the valley and (as many of you saw) to rave reviews all around Red Rocks Classic 2022. Aside from the IAC issue and what we think is a mechanical hold up on the throttle cable or linkage somewhere (?), the Holley system should self tune to his altitude and he should be a happy camper.

Perhaps Kelly can weigh in here as I know he has some seat time in Orion's car. That engine is fully broken in and they're out there taking names.

We're off tomorrow to dyno Jimmy's motor and we may have another tune to send to Zach and Aaron. We'll see though... again, Orion's tune is extremely stable.

I hope that answers a few questions.

E.

[DRPHIL914]

lots of great information for those of us considering this system, motor or both, i have one question, ; where is the new MAP sensor located? On the stealth D-jet systems using the holly ECU is it mounted in the plenum at the old Cold start valve? - and on the new Jenvey if you go that way is it built into the new manifolds?
- also , what is the status of the distributor developement with the guys you said were making this a plug in play with self contained trigger for the cam and crank sensors? i assume this then would otherwise require the installation of crank sensor for timing like with Haltec,


Phil

Thanks Zach for the real-(914)world feedback. Kelly reported in that Orion's car is tearing up the mountain roads in CA and is pretty phenomenal. We're happy to hear the results and, as Ken's stated... we've been through a ton of development model$ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) We're super happy with this platform. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

To answer a few lingering questions; Holley is having a fun time keeping up with the demand on these new ECU's. Self learning has been what everyone's been asking and waiting for it appears. This comes down to the various components as well. The IAC's were on BO for "months" and I finally gave up and ordered a Haltech unit for these builds. The Haltech systems had a design flaw that didn't allow them to work well at all. The remote housing only allowed the IAC plunger to move about 1/8". This was probably good for 30-40 RPM not the 300-400 we were looking for. OF COURSE, the minute we send them off with the Haltechs we a ) find the issue and b ) the Holley units came back in stock.

ITB's - We absolutely love the Jenvey stuff. Initially, they seemed to be more expensive but, when we learned they came with most everything needed and, the machining and their customer service is second to none... it became a more obvious choice than the gaggle of poorly cast import options. The first 5 systems were built with the Jenvey IDF platform. The only issue I've found with these ITB's is the "base" is an IDF bolt on but the top is not. We use the Vintage Speed Knecht style filter to bring a little "Porsche Vibe" back into the engine compartment and, adapters had to be made to have them fit. The following 6 builds currently in-house will have the Heritage series that Zach mentions. These are straight up IDF copies with injectors hiding in the float bowls and the TPS hidden in the bodies. Problem = Solution.

Back to IAC's a bit... we have an IAC, a MAP and 4 individual throats to deal with. Getting these modern components to operate with a vintage style ITB setup was another challenge. We prototyped many base plates. Some for the bottom of the ITB's and some for the base of the manifolds. We came up with a perfect solution all contained within the manifolds. The IAC isn't picky as to where it delivers the goods. The MAP likes to draw a more even signal. The IAC is ported up top and the MAP is ported at the base and yes... the prototyping with the base plates showed major differences in signal stability within that 4-5" on the manifold. The manifolds went on the mill and ports were added.

We knew there would be a few minor items to tick off on Zach's build as both of the previous installs were done in-house here at the shop. We weren't that concerned about the tune because we ported over the aforementioned "Orion Thorson" tune that we used as our test vehicle with mountain and city driving here in the valley and (as many of you saw) to rave reviews all around Red Rocks Classic 2022. Aside from the IAC issue and what we think is a mechanical hold up on the throttle cable or linkage somewhere (?), the Holley system should self tune to his altitude and he should be a happy camper.

Perhaps Kelly can weigh in here as I know he has some seat time in Orion's car. That engine is fully broken in and they're out there taking names.

We're off tomorrow to dyno Jimmy's motor and we may have another tune to send to Zach and Aaron. We'll see though... again, Orion's tune is extremely stable.

I hope that answers a few questions.

E.

[VaccaRabite]

I'll tell you how impressed I am with this fuel injection system.

Eric is planning (or has already made) a similar system for the Porsche 6. I'm seriously thinking of saving my (thousands of) pennies and buying it for my 6 cylinder bus project. The CIS is just way too tall to fit into the bus engine compartment without lowering the engine more then I want, and I'd prefer not to have carbs. Jenvey makes ITBs for the 6, and I'm loving the Terminator X ECU.

Zach

[JmuRiz]

Same here, my /6 engine is getting built with good carbs, but EFI is sooooo much nicer once it's setup for a car that's not driven every day (or year, haha).

[Eric_Shea]

lots of great information for those of us considering this system, motor or both, i have one question, ; where is the new MAP sensor located? On the stealth D-jet systems using the holly ECU is it mounted in the plenum at the old Cold start valve? - and on the new Jenvey if you go that way is it built into the new manifolds?
- also , what is the status of the distributor developement with the guys you said were making this a plug in play with self contained trigger for the cam and crank sensors? i assume this then would otherwise require the installation of crank sensor for timing like with Haltec,


Phil

Thanks Zach for the real-(914)world feedback. Kelly reported in that Orion's car is tearing up the mountain roads in CA and is pretty phenomenal. We're happy to hear the results and, as Ken's stated... we've been through a ton of development model$ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) We're super happy with this platform. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

To answer a few lingering questions; Holley is having a fun time keeping up with the demand on these new ECU's. Self learning has been what everyone's been asking and waiting for it appears. This comes down to the various components as well. The IAC's were on BO for "months" and I finally gave up and ordered a Haltech unit for these builds. The Haltech systems had a design flaw that didn't allow them to work well at all. The remote housing only allowed the IAC plunger to move about 1/8". This was probably good for 30-40 RPM not the 300-400 we were looking for. OF COURSE, the minute we send them off with the Haltechs we a ) find the issue and b ) the Holley units came back in stock.

ITB's - We absolutely love the Jenvey stuff. Initially, they seemed to be more expensive but, when we learned they came with most everything needed and, the machining and their customer service is second to none... it became a more obvious choice than the gaggle of poorly cast import options. The first 5 systems were built with the Jenvey IDF platform. The only issue I've found with these ITB's is the "base" is an IDF bolt on but the top is not. We use the Vintage Speed Knecht style filter to bring a little "Porsche Vibe" back into the engine compartment and, adapters had to be made to have them fit. The following 6 builds currently in-house will have the Heritage series that Zach mentions. These are straight up IDF copies with injectors hiding in the float bowls and the TPS hidden in the bodies. Problem = Solution.

Back to IAC's a bit... we have an IAC, a MAP and 4 individual throats to deal with. Getting these modern components to operate with a vintage style ITB setup was another challenge. We prototyped many base plates. Some for the bottom of the ITB's and some for the base of the manifolds. We came up with a perfect solution all contained within the manifolds. The IAC isn't picky as to where it delivers the goods. The MAP likes to draw a more even signal. The IAC is ported up top and the MAP is ported at the base and yes... the prototyping with the base plates showed major differences in signal stability within that 4-5" on the manifold. The manifolds went on the mill and ports were added.

We knew there would be a few minor items to tick off on Zach's build as both of the previous installs were done in-house here at the shop. We weren't that concerned about the tune because we ported over the aforementioned "Orion Thorson" tune that we used as our test vehicle with mountain and city driving here in the valley and (as many of you saw) to rave reviews all around Red Rocks Classic 2022. Aside from the IAC issue and what we think is a mechanical hold up on the throttle cable or linkage somewhere (?), the Holley system should self tune to his altitude and he should be a happy camper.

Perhaps Kelly can weigh in here as I know he has some seat time in Orion's car. That engine is fully broken in and they're out there taking names.

We're off tomorrow to dyno Jimmy's motor and we may have another tune to send to Zach and Aaron. We'll see though... again, Orion's tune is extremely stable.

I hope that answers a few questions.

E.

Great questions. The Holley system has a MAP built into the ECU. With a stealth "stock" unit it would be plumbed into the intake below the TB. We use the cold start injector location for the intake air temp sensor on that style of system as well.

For the new Jenvey Heritage or their IDF we mill and tap the intake runners. For IAC we plumb 2 per side into one and them plumb those together into the single outlet on the IAC. For the uninitiated, we're just plumbing air into the system to manage idle speed.

For MAP on the new motors, we tap the runners at the base. This give us a more consistent signal and moves the two ports (IAC and MAP) far enough away that they do not interfere with each others functions. These 4 are run into a buss and then into the MAP port on the ECU for control.

We have been working with Lonnie at Permatune to develop a drop in distributor of sorts. This is designed to work with the Holley ECU. It will give a cam and crank signal in one unit and he's added a bonus of plasma spark if used with his CDI style box. It is done and ready for use. This means the weekend mechanic can install the system in the garage without dropping the engine (our current engine builds have crank triggers and sensors behind the pulley and tin).

We just wrapped up the Dyno run on Jimmy's motor and he pulled 130 torque at 5500 and 132 HP and continuing to climb as we reached our self imposed 6250 redline. This was at 4300 feet so that will calculate to an addition 17.03 HP at sea level for 149.03 HP. The torque curve is amazing. Super happy with the results.

We do have this system running on Bob's 914-6 #41 as well. Future builds will also incorporate the Jenvey "Heritage" series throttle bodies. People have asked about these so I'm going to post a link herein:

IDF for 4-Cylinder builds:
https://pmbperformance.com/products/jenvey-...774e8&_ss=r

IDA for 6-Cylinder builds:
https://pmbperformance.com/products/jenvey-...774e8&_ss=r

[rick 918-S]

Are you saying in addition to the Jenvey's you need a management system like the Holley? Excuse my question I just took a speed read and skipped too many pages. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif)

[Eric_Shea]

Are you saying in addition to the Jenvey's you need a management system like the Holley? Excuse my question I just took a speed read and skipped too many pages. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif)

Yes, this would be an entirely new EFI system. Stem to stern.

[echocanyons]

Orion has been driving his car all week and I was lucky enough to put some miles on it too.
It is really a fantastic build and the EFI really wakes the large displacement engine up.
We haven’t had really any issues with the EFI aside from one errant starting issue when Eric dropped it off to us. I think that was related to the ignition switch, which we replaced.

I do think the tuning is good and a lot of the auto tuning is reasonable. There does seem to be some advantages to fine tuning it beyond this using the Holley software. That is our next step, after some reading and learning.

I am really glad that Eric and the team took on these projects and builds. It really is an easy choice to move from old equipment to this and so far is super reliable.

[rick 918-S]

Are you saying in addition to the Jenvey's you need a management system like the Holley? Excuse my question I just took a speed read and skipped too many pages. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif)

Yes, this would be an entirely new EFI system. Stem to stern.

Cool do you sell the Holley stuff also? I did not see it on your site. Man I need to read this thread. Sorry for drifting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[Eric_Shea]

We delivered Orions car to LA and (of course!!) it didn’t start off the trailer. It went from 4300 ft to 0 that day. I finally jumped in and got it started by performing a flood clear maneuver with the pedal and slowly getting a fire. This is again the beauty of the ECU. Once it got its bearings straight it took over with self learning.

Both Zach and Jim’s motors have Orions DNA tuned into them. We recently dyno’d Jim’s car here and we attempted to get a little more out of it with timing. Again, the beauty of the system. We added 2° and lost 2hp. Back to baseline. We then took out 2° and lost 2hp so we know where we are there. We then had our dyno engineer (another Eric who holds records on the Salt) look at the tune and play with a few of the top end cruising targets in an attempt to get Zach better fuel economy. I was able to email the tune to Zach that afternoon for him to try (another benefit of the system)

Here’s a few pics of the beast;

[VaccaRabite]

This is cool!

PMBs system uses the stock location for the oil temp sensor to cue the ECU. Meaning you can’t use it for your cabin gauge. But they have a solution!

This sandwich adapter from CSP has a bung for the sender in it! I have a working oil temp gauge in the car again. Added bonus, it’s shorter then the Empi adapter I had been using, so the filter is better protected by the engine bar.

I was worried about grounding. But that ended up not being an issue at all.

Zach

[StratPlayer]

Same sandwich plate that I have on my car, works like a charm.

[VaccaRabite]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/live.staticflickr.com-1435-1702319931.1.jpg)

You may notice that the car is SOAKED.

This weekend I put around 250 miles on the car for what may end up being the last drive of the year, as they are now putting salt down. It was a very busy summer and I did not get to drive the 914 as much as I had wanted, but I did put a little over 1000 miles on the new engine this year.

On the drive home yesterday, nearly the entire 80% of a 100 mile drive was an all out downpour. The car didn't seem to notice. It started right up Sunday morning without drama, and I beat feet home throwing twin rooster tails of water off the back tires the entire time.

I can't say it was the most fun I've had driving a 914 (with no heat, and using a wadded up paper towel to keep the windshield defogged got OLD.) but I wish I had a go-pro on the car for the drive. Cutting through the water like that would have made cool as hell footage.

This morning all the rain we had yesterday was replaced by some snow and slushy ice, so I'm glad the car is tucked away. I'm hopeful to get another drive before Christmas, but that will depend on the roads.

As usual, lots of folks were curious about the engine at the party. And as long as folks were sober they were free to take it for a spin Saturday. The camp out was mostly folks in Bay Windows and Vanagons, so having the weird 914 was cool as hell.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/live.staticflickr.com-1435-1702320372.1.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/live.staticflickr.com-1435-1702320372.2.jpg)

Zach