OT neighbor needed a Favor, New timing belts Options

[rfinegan]

Going to take a little break from the 914/ 2056 an install a pair of timing belts for a neighbors 944 (he has 3 cars) Im sure they all need doing too.
As they say...First taste is FREE. ;-)

[rfinegan]

another

[porschetub]

another

Not that easy to do so not long after buying my first one I farmed the work out to a local "european specialist '' as I would be away @ sea,work was completed in time and under quotation when I returned.
Almost 2 years later the pulleys all fell of the front of the engine ,not only was there a lot of damage done the car lost oil pressure @ high speed .
It turned out the crank bolt hadn't been done up tight enough ,the torque is very high on this bolt due to the oil pump drive and must be torqued correctly using a flywheel lock.
Ended up replacing the engine as shop refused to repair the original stating all the usual BS to take the blame off them.
So its a do it once and do it right job ,cheers.

[rfinegan]

Well that was fun... got to use my bore scope for the OT timing mark by the ref sensors...
Any one know how much a clutch install goes for? Not something I wish to do but needs a clutch none the less.

[brubou]

A clutch is a big ticket job floating around 4k depending on shop and location and all that.

[914sgofast2]

Well that was fun... got to use my bore scope for the OT timing mark by the ref sensors...
Any one know how much a clutch install goes for? Not something I wish to do but needs a clutch none the less.

Once you do a clutch on a 944, you will never want to do it again. You need to drop the rear transaxle and driveshaft/torque tube. Paying a shop to do would probably exceed the value of the 944. They make working on a 914 look like a vacation.

[brubou]

Well that was fun... got to use my bore scope for the OT timing mark by the ref sensors...
Any one know how much a clutch install goes for? Not something I wish to do but needs a clutch none the less.

Once you do a clutch on a 944, you will never want to do it again. You need to drop the rear transaxle and driveshaft/torque tube. Paying a shop to do would probably exceed the value of the 944. They make working on a 914 look like a vacation.

My current daily is a 944, when it needs a clutch, I'm selling it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

[mb911]

Not done a clutch yet in any of our 944s but pulled the transaxles that is about 30 minutes . The TT can’t be that bad is it? I find the timing belts are pretty straightforward the balance shaft belt needs to be looser than you expect. I find in general the 944s to be pretty easy to work on. We have an 85.5 and an 88 and both run nicely

[technicalninja]

I did a 944 clutch years back.
I did not fully remove the transmission and torque tube.
Just moved everything 8" back after removing the bell housing bolts.
It's do-able but tight.
The very worst part was the pilot bearing.
No room for a puller.
I used the grease/bread trick and it worked.

This was on the floor, on my back, and was a serious PIA.
Now that I have my own lift, I'd pull it all the way out.

Times for this job 1987 944 non-turbo
Motor / Chiltons
clutch 10.9 / 13
adds
Flywheel .3 / .2
pilot .3 / .3
TOB .2 / na
RMS .9 / .9

Turbo add 8-9 hours!

I'd bid that as 15 for a whole job with trans fluid change and clutch hydraulics fluid flush.
Slave cylinder would add .5 with trans out. 1.5 without trans removal
Clutch master would add 2.5 with job. 3.0 by itself.

I'm at $120 an hour so with stock Sachs stuff I'd be under 3K today...

[brubou]

Not done a clutch yet in any of our 944s but pulled the transaxles that is about 30 minutes . The TT can’t be that bad is it? I find the timing belts are pretty straightforward the balance shaft belt needs to be looser than you expect. I find in general the 944s to be pretty easy to work on. We have an 85.5 and an 88 and both run nicely

Can confirm on the balance shaft belts needing to be looser than you think, I set mine to spec and it whined like a supercharger, I went incrementally looser until the whine went away.

[porschetub]

Not done a clutch yet in any of our 944s but pulled the transaxles that is about 30 minutes . The TT can’t be that bad is it? I find the timing belts are pretty straightforward the balance shaft belt needs to be looser than you expect. I find in general the 944s to be pretty easy to work on. We have an 85.5 and an 88 and both run nicely

Can confirm on the balance shaft belts needing to be looser than you think, I set mine to spec and it whined like a supercharger, I went incrementally looser until the whine went away.

Yes correct,most don't have the tension gauge but set my timing belt with the twist method which worked fine and only needed small tighten after a test drive ,the balance shaft belt was adjusted as described above .
Clutch parts are rather expensive but I was super lucky as the rubber centre disk and plate were in good condition ,my throw out bearing was good but running dry (ish) so I repacked it ,however I did overhaul the slave cylinder however with new cups and boot.
I was well pleased with the clutch but it only had 123,000 kms on it when I transplanted to a 2.7 motor .

[rfinegan]

Thanks All, Ill pass this info along, If my son does not buy this one up...

[bkrantz]

Well that was fun... got to use my bore scope for the OT timing mark by the ref sensors...
Any one know how much a clutch install goes for? Not something I wish to do but needs a clutch none the less.

Once you do a clutch on a 944, you will never want to do it again. You need to drop the rear transaxle and driveshaft/torque tube. Paying a shop to do would probably exceed the value of the 944. They make working on a 914 look like a vacation.

Agree with this. When I owned my 944, replacing the clutch was one of the least fun repair jobs I ever did. I spent an entire weekend and more.

[bkrantz]

I also did the timing belt on my 944. People made a big deal of belt tension, and using the factory tool. Fortunately a buddy had one to borrow.

[r_towle]

WTH is a timing belt?

[wonkipop]

WTH is a timing belt?

something that gives you the sh$ts every 4 years if you own a renault clio 172.
you need mirrors.
you got to pull half the front off the car.
etc.
and you need a hoist or your life would be hell.
up and down.
on and on.
whats that special tool again. where did we put it.


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

apparently according to my mechanic genius mike, the 928 is a lot easier to do the clutch on than than a 924. can you believe it. not that i would know.
but a 924 is as bad to deal with as a modern day maseratti or ferrari with the front engine torque tube rear gearbox set up. i'm observing him dealing with a 10 year old masser at the moment. its all dropped. the lot. from the engine back. it seems you do not have to do this with a 928. i'm not sure how, but thats the story i just got told.

[Superhawk996]

WTH is a timing belt?

Just another reason to stay away from water pumpers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

15 hours for a clutch? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

[technicalninja]

928 was 7 hours for clutch
968 was 6.
944 Turbo was 21...
Why oh why does the installation of a turbocharger DOUBLE the clutch time?

Japanese timing belts last 150K +

German stuff half of that

Italian belts have to be changed at 30K...

A bunch of Japanese stuff is non-interference. I tell my customers it's OK to let it break!

I once personally lost a first gen MR2 t-belt at 8K rpm, no damage.

I have not seen German stuff that is non-interference and valves are always bent.

I once had a 944S4 that took EVERYTHING! It drove valves up into the cam box and broke both cams. One used engine was the fix.

Fiat spiders send the rear fuel pump lobe on the auxiliary shaft OUT the side of the block...

[ClayPerrine]

Not done a clutch yet in any of our 944s but pulled the transaxles that is about 30 minutes . The TT can’t be that bad is it? I find the timing belts are pretty straightforward the balance shaft belt needs to be looser than you expect. I find in general the 944s to be pretty easy to work on. We have an 85.5 and an 88 and both run nicely

Can confirm on the balance shaft belts needing to be looser than you think, I set mine to spec and it whined like a supercharger, I went incrementally looser until the whine went away.

Yes correct,most don't have the tension gauge but set my timing belt with the twist method which worked fine and only needed small tighten after a test drive ,the balance shaft belt was adjusted as described above .
Clutch parts are rather expensive but I was super lucky as the rubber centre disk and plate were in good condition ,my throw out bearing was good but running dry (ish) so I repacked it ,however I did overhaul the slave cylinder however with new cups and boot.
I was well pleased with the clutch but it only had 123,000 kms on it when I transplanted to a 2.7 motor .

If you still have the rubber center clutch disk, you are on borrowed time. They fail badly, and will leave you stranded. Been there, done that.

[wonkipop]

928 was 7 hours for clutch
968 was 6.
944 Turbo was 21...
Why oh why does the installation of a turbocharger DOUBLE the clutch time?

Japanese timing belts last 150K +

German stuff half of that

Italian belts have to be changed at 30K...

A bunch of Japanese stuff is non-interference. I tell my customers it's OK to let it break!

I once personally lost a first gen MR2 t-belt at 8K rpm, no damage.

I have not seen German stuff that is non-interference and valves are always bent.

I once had a 944S4 that took EVERYTHING! It drove valves up into the cam box and broke both cams. One used engine was the fix.

Fiat spiders send the rear fuel pump lobe on the auxiliary shaft OUT the side of the block...

fascinating info. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
it helps to have a non interference engine. you can let it fail.
the japanese are smart in that respect.

renault dictate 4 years or 30,000k whichever comes first.
the one i just pulled on my 172 was 8 years, but only about 10,000k.
it seemed to be in perfect condition.
i had hardly been driving the car the last 2 years in fear of it failing.
i think the europeans are very conservative on their cam belt replacement intervals because of the consequences. usually total engine destruction.

we did find the harmonic balancer pulley was on the way out.
fair enough after 20 years. rubber was perishing.
if that had failed it would have been an interesting moment too i suspect.
though probably with a bit of warning as the timing would go out and give unpleasant performance symptoms before a big bang.

cam belts are a good idea - but only so long as they are considered with a proper view towards ease of replacement.
in the case of the 172 i am fortunate (and unfortunate) to own they jammed the engine from the next model up (the megane) in the clio engine bay. there is no room for the cam belt service. renault sport basically built a factory hot rod and just forced the thing in there. i wonder how they even got it in on the assembly line. i suspect they built the front of the car around the engine after it was installed.