Carbs versus FI, I can buy some carbs and stuff but can I buy FI? Options

[Type 47]

Can you just buy a FI setup? Or do you have to resurrect your 50 system that has been in a box for forty years and you know something is wrong with it?

[JamesM]

Can you just buy a FI setup? Or do you have to resurrect your 50 system that has been in a box for forty years and you know something is wrong with it?

yes?

[r_towle]

There are quite a few packaged kits available now.
I suggest you do some googling , I just found ten options, all a bit different.

Rich

[914werke]

imo by the time you buy carbs & associated bits + then tuning you are roughly equal to what ever it will take to resurrect the OE FI. Aftermarket FI kits will be a step up in $ & complexity.

[mihai914]

Not sure if you're asking about a stock system or something more modern.

If new, there is this:
https://thedubshop.com/dual-throttle-body-f...gnition-t4-914/

PMB is apparently working on a similar kit.

If you want to stick with D-Jet, there are members and vendors that can provide new or rebuilt parts.

[mepstein]

Eric at PMB Performance has developed a modern FI system for our cars. I would contact him for info.

I think the days of resurrecting an original FI system is moving to a point of no return except for the most determined owners who have to have original systems on their cars.

[Type 47]

imo by the time you buy carbs & associated bits + then tuning you are roughly equal to what ever it will take to resurrect the OE FI. Aftermarket FI kits will be a step up in $ & complexity.

what's on the car now is a a nice set of 40 IDF Webers that were on the car when I took it apart. We cleaned them and put the rebuild kit stuff on them.

I also have another set of those on a spare 1.8 but they are in need of some TLC.

I have the original FI in a box...I've tested some of the stuff and what i tested was operational. Of course something in the box is bad or the PO would not have swapped it out for the Webers.

I'm not interested in the original FI but some new stuff might be interesting. I'm getting frustrated tuning the Webers.

I'm going to check out some of the info that was posted.

but I'm not starting from scratch. maybe I should just man up and learn how to tune the carbs.

but i'm should investigate the new FI options.

[BeatNavy]

You'll learn a lot about how an engine operates under different conditions if you go the FI route. It's a good learning experience.

If you have the original FI components, and they are basically serviceable, why not try to get that to work? If not, look at going the aftermarket FI route. But that isn't necessarily cheap or easy.

[GregAmy]

Of course something in the box is bad or the PO would not have swapped it out for the Webers.

Not necessarily.

A lot has happened between the mid-70s (when everything was working perfectly) and the recent decade-ish (when we all totally learned about the stock FI and got on board with it.)

In between that was an area of ignorance (no one knew how to work on it) and lack of replacement parts. The result was that any problem, no matter how small or (not) costly, was answered with "toss some Webers on it and be done with it."

Not so much today. This community is well-versed the systems and their problems, and we have aftermarket support in repairs/parts. And we recognize that a properly-functioning stock FI system offers far better driveability and economy than a pair of Webers.

That said...our community has also moved toward significant modifications to the basic engine, for which the stock FI cannot accommodate.

I enjoyed the stock D-Jet on my 2L, and being the tinkerer I am I modified my stock D-Jet with Microsquirt ECU. But if I had to choose between D-Jet and carbs for a stock street car, I'd definitely stick with the DJ.

BTW, I run Dellortos on the race car, because I don't care about driveability or economy. And as much as I do know about them, I find it annoying having to re-jet them for every race weekend. One of these days there's a Microsquirt system for that car...

GA

[brant]

You can bench test all of the djet components individually

But you do have to learn the system

Same with carbs they are just a different thing to learn

The only one that is brainless is to pay a shop for a complete and expensive system
You don’t have to learn it that way
But you will learn to pay thousands also

[emerygt350]

I definitely like djet but it really is limited and eventually it will run into nla on every part (it's almost there). If I had to start from scratch, I would stick with injection but move to a modern setup. PMB would be where I would start. The reason I would go to modern efi is how sensitive these engines are to lean conditions. Why risk dropping seats and burning valves?

[Type 47]

Of course something in the box is bad or the PO would not have swapped it out for the Webers.

Not necessarily.

A lot has happened between the mid-70s (when everything was working perfectly) and the recent decade-ish (when we all totally learned about the stock FI and got on board with it.)

In between that was an area of ignorance (no one knew how to work on it) and lack of replacement parts. The result was that any problem, no matter how small or (not) costly, was answered with "toss some Webers on it and be done with it."

Not so much today. This community is well-versed the systems and their problems, and we have aftermarket support in repairs/parts. And we recognize that a properly-functioning stock FI system offers far better driveability and economy than a pair of Webers.

That said...our community has also moved toward significant modifications to the basic engine, for which the stock FI cannot accommodate.

I enjoyed the stock D-Jet on my 2L, and being the tinkerer I am I modified my stock D-Jet with Microsquirt ECU. But if I had to choose between D-Jet and carbs for a stock street car, I'd definitely stick with the DJ.

BTW, I run Dellortos on the race car, because I don't care about driveability or economy. And as much as I do know about them, I find it annoying having to re-jet them for every race weekend. One of these days there's a Microsquirt system for that car...

GA

I think you hit the nail on the head.

the reason I think there's something wrong in the box is that when I had issues on my 73 1.7 back in the day know one, even the Porsche dealer could give you good options. A lot of components to swap out with each one expensive. Something there was bad but what?

I put some 2bb carb on and it was great. The cool guys put on Webers but I was not worthy (at the time).

I just want something reliable. trying to figure out how to tune the Webers and associated ignition system it seems like its somewhat fragile and needing frequent adjustments.

I did love the FI turn the key and start from the 1.7 but it only lasted a year or so before is went south.

[Superhawk996]

Can you just buy a FI setup? Or do you have to resurrect your 50 system that has been in a box for forty years and you know something is wrong with it?

I’ve been following your other thread so I definitely sense this question is being asked out of frustration. I can appreciate why you are frustrated. Tuning carbs is not hard but it takes a methodical, patient approach.

Going to FI will not be the quick fix you’re wanting.

A DIY fuel injection system has a learning curve that is MUCH steeper than learning how to tune dual Webers. If you out source the fuel injection install and tuning you will be looking at a solution that leans toward $5k or more.

I wish there were an easy DIY fool proof turn key system but it does not exist yet.

The dual Weber setup is not fragile at all. I put over 100k miles on the exact set up you have including the 009 distributor that was thought to be “the” solution in the 80s.

Put in the time to learn how to dial in the Webers. You need that baseline knowledge of tuning (rich, lean, transition, ignition advance) to be able to tune Fi anyway.

You have guys trying to help that know how to tune and you are getting good advice. Just need to buckle down, be methodical and work your way through.

[Type 47]

Not sure if you're asking about a stock system or something more modern.

If new, there is this:
https://thedubshop.com/dual-throttle-body-f...gnition-t4-914/

PMB is apparently working on a similar kit.

If you want to stick with D-Jet, there are members and vendors that can provide new or rebuilt parts.

Yeah, while this is what I was asking for i'm sure I can find a solution for less than what just the parts cost at $4,100.

I have 2 sets of 40 IDF Webers and the original, i believe L-jet FI.

Throwing that in the trash and ponying up for a 4 grand plus installation expense is probably not an option.

[Type 47]

Can you just buy a FI setup? Or do you have to resurrect your 50 system that has been in a box for forty years and you know something is wrong with it?

I’ve been following your other thread so I definitely sense this question is being asked out of frustration. I can appreciate why you are frustrated. Tuning carbs is not hard but it takes a methodical, patient approach.

Going to FI will not be the quick fix you’re wanting.

A DIY fuel injection system has a learning curve that is MUCH steeper than learning how to tune dual Webers. If you out source the fuel injection install and tuning you will be looking at a solution that leans toward $5k or more.

I wish there were an easy DIY fool proof turn key system but it does not exist yet.

The dual Weber setup is not fragile at all. I put over 100k miles on the exact set up you have including the 009 distributor that was thought to be “the” solution in the 80s.

Put in the time to learn how to dial in the Webers. You need that baseline knowledge of tuning (rich, lean, transition, ignition advance) to be able to tune Fi anyway.

You have guys trying to help that know how to tune and you are getting good advice. Just need to buckle down, be methodical and work your way through.

Thank You.

Thank you so much for your encouragement. This is the answer I was looking for.

Thank you and everyone who is trying to help me.

Please be patient with me.

my son was busy today so i tried to work on it a bit today. Which was a good thing. He screwed up what was a good running car somehow. It was running OK today but would not idle. I tried to incrementally make adjustments, but ended up thinking I needed to to do some more research.

I've got a lot of good info, but am struggling to understand it.

[Superhawk996]

There is a lot to learn if you’ve never done it before - but you can learn it and the guys here want to help and want to see you succeed.

If this is your first rodeo (sounds like it is) you might want to just hit pause for a day or two. Spend a few days on YouTube and learn more about IDFs and how they work and get two or three perspectives on tuning them. CB Performance also has some good basic setup advice on their site.

The main thing is being willing to put in the time to do the iterative tweaking. The first time I did it, it was awful. But once you learn how to make small changes and listen to how the engine responds, it just gets easier and easier and you’ll be proficient before you know it.

[bkrantz]

Not sure if you're asking about a stock system or something more modern.

If new, there is this:
https://thedubshop.com/dual-throttle-body-f...gnition-t4-914/

PMB is apparently working on a similar kit.

If you want to stick with D-Jet, there are members and vendors that can provide new or rebuilt parts.

Mario's kit at the Dub Shop will get you 99% there in terms of hardware and 80% or more in terms of tune.

[gnomefabtech]

Any modern aftermarket ECU will be leaps and bounds better than the laptop sized ecu in our cars. A megasquirt or whatever will run great using the stock D Jet hardware with the addition of modern sensors. I haven't done this yet but I think a simple setup with just throttle position, manifold vacuum, engine temp, and ignition map would make for a D-Jet looking engine that would run really well. Not exactly sure how to get a crank trigger wheel on there though.

[GeorgeKopf]

I have been looking at the SDS EM-5.

http://www.sdsefi.com/specific.html

They have three options:
D (fuel injection only) $1125 (4 cylinder)
E (fuel injection and ignition control) $1348 (4 cylinder)
F (fuel injection and direct fire ignition) $1654 (4 cylinder)

You will still need:
Fuel injectors
Fuel pressure regulator
Fuel rail
Fuel pump
Fuel return line from regulator to fuel tank
Throttle body

I'm nowhere near working on my engine but when I get there, I'm going to seriously consider SDS.

George

[r_towle]

Have you considered getting a base tune setup for you?

This is one place that may be helpful.

https://m.facebook.com/100063462346287/