Is it the fule pump?, Spluttering and stalling! Options

[chrispovoas]

And thanks for your email re where to buy from Dean, really appreciated! Just bought a rear window mastic kit to reseal the glass as its started to rattle from 914Rubber after my trip to Tauranga and back...

[emerygt350]

If the car idles after warm, and idles at 1300ish when cold, your aar is working great. Save the "rebuilt" one for the Future. Rebuilding one isn't exactly normal (check the threads on that) so I am a little suspect anyway.

You can test your aar function buy pulling and blocking the hose from the air filter housing to the aar. If the car is warm, it shouldn't change anything. If the car is cold the idle should drop and if cold enough the car should stall. There are 3 bits to the cold start.
1 the aar which bumps up the idle speed by letting extra air into the plenum.
2 the ECU using a cylinder head temp sensor to cause enrichment of the air fuel ratio
3 the csv which is an injector mounted in the plenum and gives you a shot of extra fuel at start (the timing and conditions necessary for this are debated endlessly).

Rough running at the start and then recovery with poor performance till warm makes me lean toward an issue with 2.

[KELTY360]

My $.02 (US). It's not vapor lock. If it was, in my experience, it wouldn't restart immediately. You'd have to wait til it cooled down to get started again. I think the comments about rust in the tank and clogging the sock fit the symptoms perfectly. The tank isn't hard to pull if there's not much gas in there. Don't think of it as a last resort. Can't help with the idle and rough running, that's for the experts. Good luck and....
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/welcome.png)

[wonkipop]

My $.02 (US). It's not vapor lock. If it was, in my experience, it wouldn't restart immediately. You'd have to wait til it cooled down to get started again. I think the comments about rust in the tank and clogging the sock fit the symptoms perfectly. The tank isn't hard to pull if there's not much gas in there. Don't think of it as a last resort. Can't help with the idle and rough running, that's for the experts. Good luck and....
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/welcome.png)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

fits the bill. good place to start.
my 14 is an L jet so can't help with D jet. if its not bad fuel, dirty tank then mr. @emerygt350 is probably on track with what he is speaking of?

a quarter of a century ago i did pick up a bad tank of fuel. water in the petrol.
car almost refused to run. when it did, misfires, spluttering, backfires. etc. had to flush the tank and system. injectors esp do not like gunk if it manages to get past the filters. even the smallest particles or impurities. to note it did not come good during that episode as your car is appearing to after you switch off. tends to make me think the fliter or filters if more have been fitted are blocking up then after switch off doing the classic temporary clear as the much floats back off the filter surface (for a little while).

you would only get vapor lock if the pump is in its stock location under the engine attached to the right hand chassis member behind the cabin. and it only happens after a hot shut down and not while you are on the move. it won't be that.


good luck with it.


------

and hello from across the tasman.
looks like you picked up a sweet little 14.
lots of interesting cars in NZ, most kiwis i have run into are petrol heads of the highest order and practical people. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[chrispovoas]

If the car idles after warm, and idles at 1300ish when cold, your aar is working great. Save the "rebuilt" one for the Future. Rebuilding one isn't exactly normal (check the threads on that) so I am a little suspect anyway.

You can test your aar function buy pulling and blocking the hose from the air filter housing to the aar. If the car is warm, it shouldn't change anything. If the car is cold the idle should drop and if cold enough the car should stall. There are 3 bits to the cold start.
1 the aar which bumps up the idle speed by letting extra air into the plenum.
2 the ECU using a cylinder head temp sensor to cause enrichment of the air fuel ratio
3 the csv which is an injector mounted in the plenum and gives you a shot of extra fuel at start (the timing and conditions necessary for this are debated endlessly).

Rough running at the start and then recovery with poor performance till warm makes me lean toward an issue with 2.

Thanks! Looks easy to test the AAR.. The other comments also point to the CHT sensor. I think their quite cheap, but of course it has to come from the USA, so theres a few weeks for that! If the AAR tests ok, maybe worth just puting the CHT sensor on order...

[chrispovoas]

My $.02 (US). It's not vapor lock. If it was, in my experience, it wouldn't restart immediately. You'd have to wait til it cooled down to get started again. I think the comments about rust in the tank and clogging the sock fit the symptoms perfectly. The tank isn't hard to pull if there's not much gas in there. Don't think of it as a last resort. Can't help with the idle and rough running, that's for the experts. Good luck and....
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/welcome.png)

Thanks Marc! Unfortunately my tanks 3/4 full! Ill test the AAR first this weekend, and if that tests ok, ill probably order a CHT sensor as its going to take me a while to get through all of that fuel, especially as it stalls so i cant drive that far to use the fuel up!

[chrispovoas]

My $.02 (US). It's not vapor lock. If it was, in my experience, it wouldn't restart immediately. You'd have to wait til it cooled down to get started again. I think the comments about rust in the tank and clogging the sock fit the symptoms perfectly. The tank isn't hard to pull if there's not much gas in there. Don't think of it as a last resort. Can't help with the idle and rough running, that's for the experts. Good luck and....
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/welcome.png)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

fits the bill. good place to start.
my 14 is an L jet so can't help with D jet. if its not bad fuel, dirty tank then mr. @emerygt350 is probably on track with what he is speaking of?

a quarter of a century ago i did pick up a bad tank of fuel. water in the petrol.
car almost refused to run. when it did, misfires, spluttering, backfires. etc. had to flush the tank and system. injectors esp do not like gunk if it manages to get past the filters. even the smallest particles or impurities. to note it did not come good during that episode as your car is appearing to after you switch off. tends to make me think the fliter or filters if more have been fitted are blocking up then after switch off doing the classic temporary clear as the much floats back off the filter surface (for a little while).

you would only get vapor lock if the pump is in its stock location under the engine attached to the right hand chassis member behind the cabin. and it only happens after a hot shut down and not while you are on the move. it won't be that.


good luck with it.


------

and hello from across the tasman.
looks like you picked up a sweet little 14.
lots of interesting cars in NZ, most kiwis i have run into are petrol heads of the highest order and practical people. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Thanks Wonki! I think after ive tried the sensors, the tank will be the next stop...

[emerygt350]

Hmmm. That cht for the fi is nla if I remember correctly. I could be wrong. For 1973 the cht also has an inline resistor (also no longer available) that was a stop gap before they came out with a new computer for the 2.0

You should test the cht first, easy to do with a multimeter.

Google pbanders d-jet and you will find all the information a person might need (resistance at cold etc).

If the resistor is missing, you can simply make your own (I had to on mine).

[BeatNavy]

Google pbanders d-jet and you will find all the information a person might need (resistance at cold etc).

You mean the link I provided in the 5th post? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

https://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/DJetParts.htm

If you plan on troubleshooting and working on this car yourself, I strongly recommend you start getting familiar with D-Jet theory as well as its specific components.

Also, Chris, don't feel obligated to thank / respond to each individual post separately. It's thoughtful, but it also kind of makes the thread longer and harder to follow at some point.

All good, and good luck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[emerygt350]

Google pbanders d-jet and you will find all the information a person might need (resistance at cold etc).

You mean the link I provided in the 5th post? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

https://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/DJetParts.htm

If you plan on troubleshooting and working on this car yourself, I strongly recommend you start getting familiar with D-Jet theory as well as its specific components.

Also, Chris, don't feel obligated to thank / respond to each individual post separately. It's thoughtful, but it also kind of makes the thread longer and harder to follow at some point.

All good, and good luck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

https://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[emerygt350]

I was just thinking... you may want to post some pictures of the engine bay. If people have been poking around in there, you can't be certain things are still the way they should be. These old systems are incredibly simple, but very sensitive to PO misbehavior. When I got mine (running 'fine'), it had 1 injector from a 1.7 L, all the hoses were going places they shouldn't have been but not so far off that the car didn't run and drive, but that created all kinds of strange gremlins.

We can help you identify those kinds of issues really quickly.

[chrispovoas]

I was just thinking... you may want to post some pictures of the engine bay. If people have been poking around in there, you can't be certain things are still the way they should be. These old systems are incredibly simple, but very sensitive to PO misbehavior. When I got mine (running 'fine'), it had 1 injector from a 1.7 L, all the hoses were going places they shouldn't have been but not so far off that the car didn't run and drive, but that created all kinds of strange gremlins.

We can help you identify those kinds of issues really quickly.

Thanks Emery, will do that next weekend.. Shes tucked away in secure parking for the working week now!

[chrispovoas]

Thanks for all of your suggestions so far guys, just a bit of an update.

Seems the AA Valve hose was hanging off, so i pushed it back on and will continue to monitor...

So started from cold 3 times this weekend and the idling was the same each time.. Sat in teh drive way for a good 5 min each time.

Starts at 1000rpm and slowly edges its way upto 1800.. After a minute or so, comes down to around 1400 and sits there for ages....

Will post a pic of the mototr neext weekend.

[chrispovoas]

Hi guys, Chris from New Zealand here....finally bought myself a 914! Shes a '73 2.0 with original FI. Had her about a week, after standing for 8 years.

Previous owner spent some time and money getting her on the road as part of the sale to me, but still a bit of work to be done! I'll try and attach a picture.

Took her for a shakedown run today for about 3 hours but then she started coughing and spluttering then stalled at about 60mph. Coasted to a halt, ignition on/off and away she went again for about half an hour.. Same thing again, ignition on/off and all was well for another 20 min.. This went on and on and the intervals between spluttering and stalling got more frequent until i just about made it home.

Felt like fuel rather than electrical... Could it be the fuel pump, or any other ideas?

I have a feeling I'll be using the forum quite a bit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Nice to meet everyone!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/welcome.png) greeting from fellow NZ 914 owner .
As beatnavy mentioned check the grounds, connections, relays etc as it could be electrical,if it all looks ok check plugs ,leads ,cap,points and plugs ,could be something simple like a dying coil or points out of adjustment/or just worn out.
Reset / check valve clearances then start it up and check timing if you have a stable idle otherwise you need to make sure your aux air valve is working,you can test this by diconnecting the power wire and if it still runs the same the valve is stuck and not opening.
See how you go ,you can email me for a chat anytime ,like to keep up with NZ owners and chat ,cheers.
Oh and forgot to mention ,real nice looking car (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) .

Thanks Porschetub! where are you based?

This was Alistair Moffats car in Auckland. He's done a fair bit of work to get ot on the road, mostly what needed to be done to pass a WoF and get it drivable, so brakes, clutch, gear shift springs, bushes, some FI hoses etc etc... It drives really well. feels tight and responsive, just the stalling issue to report after a drive from Auck to Mt Maunganui and back in the same day... The usual rattles and squeeks prevail, but nothing that some online shopping at Auto Altanta cant fix! (where do you go for your parts?).

Started ok this morning.. bit of a flutter, but a boot full got it idling.. Seems to idle high at around 1200/1400 rpm.

I'am based in Nelson bays in a 'one horse' town over the bay called Motueka ,moved here a couple of yrs ago .
I have bought parts from mainly from the west coast of the US as it keeps the crazy shipping cost a bit less crazy ,I can email you my favourites if you like .
Sellers on here are great also as there prices are generally very keen and NEVER had an issue with quality .
Sounds like your cold idle is in the ballpark so your AAR must be working ,could be an air leak to fix or an adjustment of the air screw,best to check your timing before doing this as it could be over- advanced or the distributor is a bit gummed up which is very common with 205 number units..
Sounds like a bit already been done so thats a step ahead in terms of labour ,time and $$$.
Included a pic of my NZ new car ,cheers.

Dean, send me an email again with your rmail address in it so i dontg have to reply here.. And yes, send me your list of parts!!

[CCE]

In my case (with webers, no FI) the coil connector was loose, and failed at speed too, fryed a couple of coils two!.
Now I have one in storage.

It was the coil connector (in my case).

Welcome to 914world,




The coil was $45 and the flatbed $200 (low point) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

[ConeDodger]

I had a fuel pump fail at an autocross. Sputtered around the course. @McMark fixed it so I didn’t see it but I think he said the canister was swollen? Luckily it was the second run when it failed so I was TTOD on street tires and was close to Steve Neislony’s time on race tires. Sputtering from gas starvation was my symptom so…

[chrispovoas]

In my case (with webers, no FI) the coil connector was loose, and failed at speed too, fryed a couple of coils two!.
Now I have one in storage.

It was the coil connector (in my case).

Welcome to 914world,




The coil was $45 and the flatbed $200 (low point) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

Thats a nice looking enghine bay and modern coil! Mines still running the original Lucas coil and the engine looks like its 50 years old!

[porschetub]

In my case (with webers, no FI) the coil connector was loose, and failed at speed too, fryed a couple of coils two!.
Now I have one in storage.

It was the coil connector (in my case).

Welcome to 914world,




The coil was $45 and the flatbed $200 (low point) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

Thats a nice looking enghine bay and modern coil! Mines still running the original Lucas coil and the engine looks like its 50 years old!

Hi Chris,just thinking you may have answered your running problem...Lucas coil eh,IMO you need to bin that and fit a Bosch blue coil ,I used to work part time @ VW shop years ago and seen many of them fail ,the shop owner used to hate them and bin them when doing tune-ups ,they suffer from heatsoak and break down when hot they simply aren't up to the heat you get in the engine bay ,no matter if aircooled motor bus ,bug or 914 they were never designed for that.
Try to find a bosch blue oil filled coil that is made in Germany or Brazil ,read on the Samba there are knockoffs made in China that don't last ,lots of replies saying the same.
Mark @ themetricnut has a pretty good selection of AC parts and stocks the Brazil made blue coil and the cheaper Beru which is fine.
Maybe a full ignition service is in your future...don't know but I would start with the coil,cheers.

[r_towle]

At cold start (20 c) it should jump up to 12-1400 rpm. As it warms it will rise to 1400 but shouldn't go higher. That is the aux air valve. As the filament in the aav heats it will bring the idle down. As the heads heat the sensor the ECU uses to enrich the air fuel ratio will eventually tell the ECU to knock it off. At this point the idle should be about 850. This can take a long long time in cold temps. Temps less than 20c.

The system the type 4 uses to control airflow over the oil cooler and heads is really interesting and important. Besides insuring that you are not running lean, you need to make sure that is working as intended. Do you have a Chilton's or clymers manual?

Just went out for a 30min spin and the idle etc seems to line up as per your comments above.

The first 10 minutes of the drive it was coughing and spluttering, no power etc.. But after about 15 minutes of warm up that went away and it ran fine.

This is how it was yesterday, but on an extended run (a 3 hour drive) with more time is when it stalled a number of times.

No, dont have either of those manuals..

You seem to have a temp issue.

Three things I would do to troubleshoot this.
I would remove the vacuum line to the AAR and put tape over the hole in the plenum and tape over the AAR.
These rust inside, it’s a steel spring, and I can get stuck in one position.

Second
Get a brass, male male 5/16 barbed fitting
Remove the fuel line from both sides of the cold start injector and connect them together with the fitting.
These cold start injectors sometimes fail open and will add too much fuel no matter what the temp is.

Third, measure the output of the CHT when it’s stone cold.
Measure again once it’s nice and hot.

These are your three temp related items.

Finally, clean and regrease the advance plates on the distributor.
Old grease no longer allows them to move freely.
This can cause the advance plates to stick in full advance when warm, thus increasing the idle speed.

If you cannot change or make an impact on the idle speed with the idle adjustment screw, you must find the root cause of either a vacuum leak, or timing issue.

You mentioned the hose fell off the AAR very casually, but that is a massive vacuum leak.



Rich

[914_teener]

My $.02 (US). It's not vapor lock. If it was, in my experience, it wouldn't restart immediately. You'd have to wait til it cooled down to get started again. I think the comments about rust in the tank and clogging the sock fit the symptoms perfectly. The tank isn't hard to pull if there's not much gas in there. Don't think of it as a last resort. Can't help with the idle and rough running, that's for the experts. Good luck and....
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/welcome.png)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

fits the bill. good place to start.
my 14 is an L jet so can't help with D jet. if its not bad fuel, dirty tank then mr. @emerygt350 is probably on track with what he is speaking of?

a quarter of a century ago i did pick up a bad tank of fuel. water in the petrol.
car almost refused to run. when it did, misfires, spluttering, backfires. etc. had to flush the tank and system. injectors esp do not like gunk if it manages to get past the filters. even the smallest particles or impurities. to note it did not come good during that episode as your car is appearing to after you switch off. tends to make me think the fliter or filters if more have been fitted are blocking up then after switch off doing the classic temporary clear as the much floats back off the filter surface (for a little while).

you would only get vapor lock if the pump is in its stock location under the engine attached to the right hand chassis member behind the cabin. and it only happens after a hot shut down and not while you are on the move. it won't be that.


good luck with it.


------

and hello from across the tasman.
looks like you picked up a sweet little 14.
lots of interesting cars in NZ, most kiwis i have run into are petrol heads of the highest order and practical people. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Hey Winki....do ya guys really spell fuel like that down under? Fule?