Looks like the 911 will be the last man standing. Options

[horizontally-opposed]

Ok, So my take on EV. If you own a house with a garage you will never visit a charging station unless you are on a trip of 300+ miles. Its like leaving your house with a full tank of gas every time you drive. If you do not own a house then you are at the mercy of where you can charge.
In my current life i drive most of my miles for work at about 15,000 miles a year (i do not commute to a office this is random locations about town for customer visits). I go 300+ miles a day about 6 times a year and 1200 miles 1 to 2 times a year. When I am going cross country (1200 miles for personal use) I rent a car. Renting for long distance travel ends up being less cost than the wear and tear on my own car ( based on general guidance of .55Cents per mile) and If my car breaks down I can swap for another from the rental company and I have road side assistance. I fully expect to have a EV in my future as a daily driver. With the demise of manual transmission cars I enjoy, I will have to enjoy my old manual transmission ICE cars when I am not driving the slog thru big city traffic or the 1-2 miles to the grocery store.

john

Have a very similar use case, and very similar outlook.

Can't see my old stick-shift 914 going anywhere, and its simple/analog experience is only becoming more valuable to me given where the car world is going (and has already gone). If you think about sports cars from the standpoints of size, balance, form factor, materials quality, and support, the 914 is very, very hard to beat. It also stands up in terms of the quality and fun of its driving experience when compared to some of the greatest Porsche sports and racing cars of all time. Didn't expect that, back when I thought I wanted to move on and up from the 914.

We have a plug in hybrid…

We have solar on the roof….so I am up for a pure electric, while keeping a gas car for any longer (rare) trips.

I would love to see much smaller cars.
Short around town grocery getters do not need to be massive, and would be faster to charge…..

^ We recently changed our family car to a PHEV, our first toe in, and also have rooftop solar + battery (both done for non-EV reasons).

For a "get-around" vehicle, it's pretty fantastic for the reasons others have stated in this thread: Even on a Level 1 / 120V charger, we aren't using much gasoline anymore—and longer intervals for brake linings on a daily car is very appealing. All that kinetic energy, for all those years, wasted in both $ and materials disposal. Particularly on the heavier family cars of today. In fact, the engine comes on so rarely I can see wanting to run it occasionally on purpose just to run it once we install a Level 2 charger. If it had 20~ more miles range on EV mode, I'm not sure we'd even bother with a Level 2 charger for daily use.

Would also love to see more small car options. Things to get around in don't need to be so big & heavy, and small size can be its own luxury—but I'd like to see the battery tech and safety improve first.

anyway. i don't want one. i don't wan't to park next to one in the street.
its just too random? sure the odds are low. but..........

and i speak as an enthusiast of the original burner ----- the 914.
but they didn't sit in your garage and explode at midnight. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

and as to car carriers burning.
i am a designer.
i get how car carriers are set up for fire regs.
its based on C02 flooding (previously Halon until ozone depletion came in) and its based on horizontal fire separation of decks and top down sprinklers.
none of which as measures can suppress a battery fire or a chain of battery fires.

same goes for your house or an apartment building you live in.
or if you are real fancy and live in an apartment building with a car stacker.

i am only a professional building designer. but if there are any fireman on this website i am sure they will chime in and back me up.

this stuff is truly problematic. and with accelerating EV take up its a real problem.

and you can solve problems.
but don't pretend for one minute its not serious, as a problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

^ Great post, and agree with much of this.

Like you, I don't want an EV or PHEV inside of home's structure—and I definitely would not want to live in the apartment we rented when we were first married if an EV was charged or even just parked down there. Relatively low % chance of fire? Sure. But that's kind of like the low % chance with an M96 or M97 engine. While we had great luck with our M96, and my brother now has 236,000 trouble-free miles on it, we've lived through a house fire.

We've been thinking about a dedicated parking pad for a long time, which would be spaced from the house as well as our neighbor's by a fair bit and away from trees but near a wood fence we'd likely replace, and will definitely add a Level 2/3 charger when the time comes. As a designer, maybe you know: Have fire suppression systems been considered for EV charging points, whether indoors or out? Can see a point where enough of those car transport boats are lost that the floors will get something, and 02 evacuation will become a thing, or a better thing.

[technicalninja]

I'm going to wait for the imaginary "power cell" I referred to.

A fire suppression system that can handle a full-on Li-ion battery fire will be a bad assed MOFO.


I have a real Halon extinguisher on my bench; a big one. It's 35 years old.

It will ONLY be used when ALL of the other extinguishers do not work...

I also have 8+ old style chemical extinguishers to go through first.


My buddy punched a small halon off into a fully engulfed Ford Explorer dash fire.

This thing had 10-foot flames coming out of the open doors.

His comment now is "Halon extinguishers will put out the SUN!".

Saved that Explorer...

[wonkipop]

I'm going to wait for the imaginary "power cell" I referred to.

A fire suppression system that can handle a full-on Li-ion battery fire will be a bad assed MOFO.


I have a real Halon extinguisher on my bench; a big one. It's 35 years old.

It will ONLY be used when ALL of the other extinguishers do not work...

I also have 8+ old style chemical extinguishers to go through first.


My buddy punched a small halon off into a fully engulfed Ford Explorer dash fire.

This thing had 10-foot flames coming out of the open doors.

His comment now is "Halon extinguishers will put out the SUN!".

Saved that Explorer...

i like the way you are thinking.

maybe the problem on these car ships is because they can't use halon anymore they are are in a world of pain.

its catch 22.

alan arkin where are you?
typical problem our scientific world gets into.
hedged into a corner.
anyway.
problems.........
are there to be solved. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[wonkipop]

Ok, So my take on EV. If you own a house with a garage you will never visit a charging station unless you are on a trip of 300+ miles. Its like leaving your house with a full tank of gas every time you drive. If you do not own a house then you are at the mercy of where you can charge.
In my current life i drive most of my miles for work at about 15,000 miles a year (i do not commute to a office this is random locations about town for customer visits). I go 300+ miles a day about 6 times a year and 1200 miles 1 to 2 times a year. When I am going cross country (1200 miles for personal use) I rent a car. Renting for long distance travel ends up being less cost than the wear and tear on my own car ( based on general guidance of .55Cents per mile) and If my car breaks down I can swap for another from the rental company and I have road side assistance. I fully expect to have a EV in my future as a daily driver. With the demise of manual transmission cars I enjoy, I will have to enjoy my old manual transmission ICE cars when I am not driving the slog thru big city traffic or the 1-2 miles to the grocery store.

john

Have a very similar use case, and very similar outlook.

Can't see my old stick-shift 914 going anywhere, and its simple/analog experience is only becoming more valuable to me given where the car world is going (and has already gone). If you think about sports cars from the standpoints of size, balance, form factor, materials quality, and support, the 914 is very, very hard to beat. It also stands up in terms of the quality and fun of its driving experience when compared to some of the greatest Porsche sports and racing cars of all time. Didn't expect that, back when I thought I wanted to move on and up from the 914.

We have a plug in hybrid…

We have solar on the roof….so I am up for a pure electric, while keeping a gas car for any longer (rare) trips.

I would love to see much smaller cars.
Short around town grocery getters do not need to be massive, and would be faster to charge…..

^ We recently changed our family car to a PHEV, our first toe in, and also have rooftop solar + battery (both done for non-EV reasons).

For a "get-around" vehicle, it's pretty fantastic for the reasons others have stated in this thread: Even on a Level 1 / 120V charger, we aren't using much gasoline anymore—and longer intervals for brake linings on a daily car is very appealing. All that kinetic energy, for all those years, wasted in both $ and materials disposal. Particularly on the heavier family cars of today. In fact, the engine comes on so rarely I can see wanting to run it occasionally on purpose just to run it once we install a Level 2 charger. If it had 20~ more miles range on EV mode, I'm not sure we'd even bother with a Level 2 charger for daily use.

Would also love to see more small car options. Things to get around in don't need to be so big & heavy, and small size can be its own luxury—but I'd like to see the battery tech and safety improve first.

anyway. i don't want one. i don't wan't to park next to one in the street.
its just too random? sure the odds are low. but..........

and i speak as an enthusiast of the original burner ----- the 914.
but they didn't sit in your garage and explode at midnight. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

and as to car carriers burning.
i am a designer.
i get how car carriers are set up for fire regs.
its based on C02 flooding (previously Halon until ozone depletion came in) and its based on horizontal fire separation of decks and top down sprinklers.
none of which as measures can suppress a battery fire or a chain of battery fires.

same goes for your house or an apartment building you live in.
or if you are real fancy and live in an apartment building with a car stacker.

i am only a professional building designer. but if there are any fireman on this website i am sure they will chime in and back me up.

this stuff is truly problematic. and with accelerating EV take up its a real problem.

and you can solve problems.
but don't pretend for one minute its not serious, as a problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

^ Great post, and agree with much of this.

Like you, I don't want an EV or PHEV inside of home's structure—and I definitely would not want to live in the apartment we rented when we were first married if an EV was charged or even just parked down there. Relatively low % chance of fire? Sure. But that's kind of like the low % chance with an M96 or M97 engine. While we had great luck with our M96, and my brother now has 236,000 trouble-free miles on it, we've lived through a house fire.

We've been thinking about a dedicated parking pad for a long time, which would be spaced from the house as well as our neighbor's by a fair bit and away from trees but near a wood fence we'd likely replace, and will definitely add a Level 2/3 charger when the time comes. As a designer, maybe you know: Have fire suppression systems been considered for EV charging points, whether indoors or out? Can see a point where enough of those car transport boats are lost that the floors will get something, and 02 evacuation will become a thing, or a better thing.

there will be an answer to this at some point.

in the meantime, i don't know.
a good smoke detector.
whatever.
but be cautious sleeping next to one.
while you are out to the world is when you are most vulnerable.
again speaking as a designer.
you need enough time to escape whatever catastrophe unfolds, which if not of your own making while you are wide awake looking at it going "oh fark" you have enough time to do.
......time to start running.
but asleep its a different matter.

[jd74914]

but asleep its a different matter.

Very true and generally underappreciated. It's one of the reasons I like my detached garage and further spaced shed for fuel storage. Separation of hazards from my house while sleeping or away.

[flipb]

The challenge with EV batteries is that manufacturers want the battery encased in an armored shell to prevent damage due to impact, penetration, or accidents. That same armored shell makes it almost impossible for a fire department to fully douse a battery with thermal runaway. It's made more difficult by the fact that batteries fires don't require an external oxygen source.

That said, the incidence of BEV fires is way lower than the incidence of fires in combustion-engined vehicles (source).

One of the most vulnerable times for a vehicle to catch fire is during refueling... whether that's at the local gas station, on pit lane at a track, or at an EV charger, but only one of those is typically found in a residential building. And almost universally, refueling fires are the result of a screw-up... smoking at the pump, spilling fuel on an exhaust manifold, or having improperly wired/installed charge setups.

My Tesla charges overnight in the attached garage, which it shares with my 914. Between the two, there's only one I feel I need to check on a few minutes after driving to make sure it's not smoldering. It's not the Tesla.

[horizontally-opposed]

while you are out to the world is when you are most vulnerable.
again speaking as a designer.
you need enough time to escape whatever catastrophe unfolds, which if not of your own making while you are wide awake looking at it going "oh fark" you have enough time to do.
......time to start running.
but asleep its a different matter.

We are very aware of this, as that was nearly our situation with our house fire.

We'd been up for maybe 30min, our 10yo was still asleep. Thankful the fire didn't start 30-40min earlier…not sure what would have happened.

Cause was electrical, ironically related to bringing the house up to code, and discovered by its smell well before the first fire alarm alerted. We have them throughout the house, all modern and interconnected.

Would the smell have awakened us? Not so sure...

[flipb]

Interesting twist, if this is confirmed. Of course it won't get nearly as much media coverage as the "EV-carrying ship on fire" headlines a couple weeks ago.

https://thedriven.io/2023/08/14/sorry-ev-ha...-electric-cars/

TL;DR: According to the salvage company working the Fremantle Highway, all of the EVs aboard were parked on a low deck that was essentially spared from fire damage. The fire appears to have started on a high deck that contained no EVs.

[gnomefabtech]

I've been driving some kind of EV as my in town daily for 10 years now and never bought anything but tires for them. I also never charge anywhere but home and since it's pretty rare to drive more than 250 miles in one day range is almost never an issue. I do have a gas car for the rare long trip though. I realize that not everyone can have two cars and a place to charge an EV but if you can, it's pretty hard to argue against them.

It's just a matter of time before the power grid expands and everything normalizes and considering how dirty oil extraction is both physically and politically I think we're moving forward by switching to EVs. Hopefully home solar will become even more common along the way and we can keep our vintage gas cars going for fun longer because of the gains we make switching over to EVs.

[Superhawk996]

It's just a matter of time before the power grid expands and everything normalizes and considering how dirty oil extraction is both physically and politically I think we're moving forward by switching to EVs.

Might want to investigate where those rare earth, raw materials for Lithium-ion batteries are coming from and how they are obtained.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2...-siddharth-kara


https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/02/01/s...electric-future



Recycling of Lithium battery’s is just around the corner . . . Along with that grid upgrade.

[wonkipop]

Interesting twist, if this is confirmed. Of course it won't get nearly as much media coverage as the "EV-carrying ship on fire" headlines a couple weeks ago.

https://thedriven.io/2023/08/14/sorry-ev-ha...-electric-cars/

TL;DR: According to the salvage company working the Fremantle Highway, all of the EVs aboard were parked on a low deck that was essentially spared from fire damage. The fire appears to have started on a high deck that contained no EVs.

we shall see,
the website is not exactly without a stated position in relation to EV vehicles.
time will tell what went down.

[mate914]

If oil coming out of the ground is so bad. Why is lithium and cobalt coming out of the ground good? EV's are toys for rich people. That's what the owners tell me as I install charging outlets in peoples homes. Its just and a new toy.

Matt

[flipb]

If oil coming out of the ground is so bad. Why is lithium and cobalt coming out of the ground good? EV's are toys for rich people. That's what the owners tell me as I install charging outlets in peoples homes. Its just and a new toy.

Matt

I love it when a rando on a message board tells me that my DD for the past seven years, in which I've driven countless commutes, carpools, road trips, loads of gear from Costco & Home Depot, while spending nearly zero on maintenance... is a toy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)


It is, without a doubt, the most practical vehicle I've ever had.

[Shivers]

If oil coming out of the ground is so bad. Why is lithium and cobalt coming out of the ground good? EV's are toys for rich people. That's what the owners tell me as I install charging outlets in peoples homes. Its just and a new toy.

Matt

I love it when a rando on a message board tells me that my DD for the past seven years, in which I've driven countless commutes, carpools, road trips, loads of gear from Costco & Home Depot, while spending nearly zero on maintenance... is a toy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)


It is, without a doubt, the most practical vehicle I've ever had.

From this guide the only thing you should not be maintaining is an ICE. With all that weight I’d think brakes, tires and axle bearings (whatever that may be on an EV) would be something I’d be checking often. And I’d imagine that the cost you’d put out to maintain an ICE will come when replacing the batteries. I had to look Rando up...

https://cyberbackpack.com/blogs/tesla-cyber...ASAAEgImK_D_BwE

[flipb]

From this guide the only thing you should not be maintaining is an ICE. With all that weight I’d think brakes, tires and axle bearings (whatever that may be on an EV) would be something I’d be checking often. And I’d imagine that the cost you’d put out to maintain an ICE will come when replacing the batteries. I had to look Rando up...

https://cyberbackpack.com/blogs/tesla-cyber...ASAAEgImK_D_BwE

I'm at 99K miles, and the brake pads are in great shape. Regen does most of the work. Unless it's a panic stop, I usually let Regen slow me down to ~15mph or less before using the friction brakes to come to a complete stop.

I replace the cabin air filter annually on my own. I top off windshield washer fluid and change the wipers on my own. I also replaced the headlight bulbs once, which was a PITA that involved removing the front wheel well liners.

A lot of Tesla owners complain about tire consumption but it hasn't been too bad for me. I just put on a new set after the Continentals lasted me around 30-40K miles.

My battery still has somewhere around 85% of its original capacity. I haven't done a 100% charge in a while to check... they recommend charging to 80-90% on a normal daily basis.

I probably should be on the lookout for wheel bearings and suspension bushings. I can go a couple of years without a Tesla tech looking at the car and finding things to recommend; it's easy to not think much about it.

[mate914]

I think your electric car is a good thing. I am glad you can afford it, but most tax payers can not. Wait, is not Fairfax the richest county in the United states? I said toy an it hurt you? What is a 914, but a great toy!
Matt

From this guide the only thing you should not be maintaining is an ICE. With all that weight I’d think brakes, tires and axle bearings (whatever that may be on an EV) would be something I’d be checking often. And I’d imagine that the cost you’d put out to maintain an ICE will come when replacing the batteries. I had to look Rando up...

https://cyberbackpack.com/blogs/tesla-cyber...ASAAEgImK_D_BwE

I'm at 99K miles, and the brake pads are in great shape. Regen does most of the work. Unless it's a panic stop, I usually let Regen slow me down to ~15mph or less before using the friction brakes to come to a complete stop.

I replace the cabin air filter annually on my own. I top off windshield washer fluid and change the wipers on my own. I also replaced the headlight bulbs once, which was a PITA that involved removing the front wheel well liners.

A lot of Tesla owners complain about tire consumption but it hasn't been too bad for me. I just put on a new set after the Continentals lasted me around 30-40K miles.

My battery still has somewhere around 85% of its original capacity. I haven't done a 100% charge in a while to check... they recommend charging to 80-90% on a normal daily basis.

I probably should be on the lookout for wheel bearings and suspension bushings. I can go a couple of years without a Tesla tech looking at the car and finding things to recommend; it's easy to not think much about it.

[wonkipop]

Interesting twist, if this is confirmed. Of course it won't get nearly as much media coverage as the "EV-carrying ship on fire" headlines a couple weeks ago.

https://thedriven.io/2023/08/14/sorry-ev-ha...-electric-cars/

TL;DR: According to the salvage company working the Fremantle Highway, all of the EVs aboard were parked on a low deck that was essentially spared from fire damage. The fire appears to have started on a high deck that contained no EVs.

ok - that story published in an ev enthusiast website is a distortion of the factual release of information concerning what has been found.

the fire did not spread down into decks 1-4.
deck 5 acted as a fire break. 5 is the loading deck.
the ship was not 100% loaded and deck 5 had been left empty.
they try to pack EVs into bottom decks because the cars are heavier.
little appreciated is that an EV is roughly twice as heavy as the equal ICE car.
(Which means your big super size US mega ute is a 4 ton car. its true).

as a result no cars were burnt down there.

about half the EV load of an inventory of 800 cars (thats the correct figure) were below deck 5. just less than 500 EVS.

the rest were on decks 6 and up.
so it has not been established that the source of the fire was not an EV.
the fire started on deck 8. burnt out the entire deck very quickly.
then spread upwards and also downwards due to radiation of the hot deck.
the decks around the source of the fire have collapsed and the cars are fused together and to the decks. last info i read said they can't fully get into those decks yet. too dangerous.

the are photos of burnt out taycans in areas of burnt decks, alongside almost melted 911s.

i believe a taycan is an EV?
so it really has not been established what ignited the fire.
but the deck on which the fire started is known.
and there were EVs, around 300 on the decks that burned.

[wonkipop]

ps - as an aside @flipb
i am by no means an electric vehicle hater.
i have long looked for a honda insight gen1 to park in the garage alongside the 914.
ok its a hybrid. but i dig it.

i am however a lithium ion battery hater.
so i'd have to leave it outside at night.
i think the present batteries are prototype technology and i blame elon m for pushing it out there maybe too soon? there will be better batteries. less volatile. or not volatile even.

but i still want the honda. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[technicalninja]

I wanted an Insight as well.

I wanted to do bad things with it...

Like set the 1.0L LSR record type of bad things.

Someone else had the same idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbNlR-fMlOw

Not only the fastest Insight ever, also the most destroyed...

For a while they were dirt cheap here, like $500 cheap.

[wonkipop]

I wanted an Insight as well.

I wanted to do bad things with it...

Like set the 1.0L LSR record type of bad things.

Someone else had the same idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbNlR-fMlOw

Not only the fastest Insight ever, also the most destroyed...

For a while they were dirt cheap here, like $500 cheap.

unfortunately they have never been cheap here.
only a handfull sold.
but one and a half handfulls of farkers knew they were real interesting.
which has defeated me in my usual quest of picking up a bargain on a genuine bit of avante garde auto NASA space junk. damn it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

but at least i got a 914 on those terms half a lifetime ago.

and i managed to stash a renault clio rs 172 the same way.

just need to nab that honda. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)