Four vs Six, comparison questions Options

[johnmhudson111]

I am sure ths has been discussed before but I couldn't find anything using the search. So, has there been a comparison done between a 911 six and big four, like Jake Raby's engines? Looking at:
1. Overall cost of engine (plus consideration of the cost of the conversion to a six from a four)
2. power hp/tq
3. engine life
4. other issues?

[redshift]

QUOTE (Matt Monson @ Aug 16 2005, 02:20 PM)

We have a rebuilt 1976 2.7S engine here for $6500, no core, and a rebuilt 3.0l for $9000. I am not trying to push product here, but just am wondering where those higher numbers are coming from???

And there is the 3.0 I am talking about.


M

[goose2]

Regarding six prices.....I just bought a very low mileage 3.0 for $3500. An exceptional deal maybe, and a bit of a gamble, but they're out there.

[iamchappy]

I switched from a 2 liter 4, to a 3 liter 6 turbocharged engine and just installed a blow away stereo with 2-5.25", 2-6.5" Alpine type r speakers and 2- 8" Quart subs.

There is no way I would rather have a 4 now. And I do not wish to not have a stereo. If I want to listen
to the engine all i have to do is turn the stereo off.

I would still enjoy driving a 4, but prefer the 6.

[johnmhudson111]

QUOTE (redshift @ Aug 16 2005, 01:24 PM)

LA Dismantlers... (disclaimer) if you go over there, and see the motor you want, in the car, to verify milage, and... You can get a 3.2 with real low miles for around $6.5k with all the goodies. Make sure it runs, because alot of the wrecks they get are a flat 911 shaped thing, with an engine lid, and internals can do bad things, on impact. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) M

Over here on the right coast you can get a 3.2 with all the goodies for $6800. So given that and then then you have the engine mount, oil tank, additional oil cooler, and ????

[redshift]

Yeah, you need an oil tank, all the fittings, a cooler, and mounting, and a mount, and.. yeah, the Pelican conversion guide has the list.

I thought this thread was a comparison of motors.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)


M

[tat2dphreak]

QUOTE (redshift @ Aug 16 2005, 01:59 PM)

Yeah, you need an oil tank, all the fittings, a cooler, and mounting, and a mount, and.. yeah, the Pelican conversion guide has the list. I thought this thread was a comparison of motors. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif) M

here I thought it was a comparison of the costs... hp vs cost has to include the cost to convert...

if a /6 was just a "drop in" it would be a much easier decision.

[Mueller]

QUOTE (tat2dphreak @ Aug 16 2005, 12:04 PM)

QUOTE (redshift @ Aug 16 2005, 01:59 PM) Yeah, you need an oil tank, all the fittings, a cooler, and mounting, and a mount, and.. yeah, the Pelican conversion guide has the list. I thought this thread was a comparison of motors. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif) M here I thought it was a comparison of the costs... hp vs cost has to include the cost to convert...

IMHO,

the cost to convert should not be included..the oil tank, the engine mount and other related items are a 1 time purchase...the only thing that should be compared is the cost of the motor and related costs to keeping the motor alive

[TonyAKAVW]

I wonder how many of those hi-po type 4s can be dropped in the engine bay without the use of an external oil cooler. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/huh.gif)


On the other hand you could put in a Subaru 2.5 and get 170 HP out of the box for only marginally more effort than a 6 conversion and a fraction of the cost. Not to mention a fraction of the cost of a type 4 that can put out that power. There's no valves to adjust, just a belt to replace every 100k miles. Not to mention a modern electronic fuel injection and ignition system. No more caps and rotors, no distributors, no timing adjustment, no points (or pertronix), etc. etc. And 100k miles. Easy.

Oh and don't forget the weight savings. I haven't measured myself but apparently, lighter than a type IV....

Then there's the whole thing about new cams for around $500 and getting just north of 200 HP.

Sure its not a Porsche motor, and yes it is water cooled. If you can live with those issues then it makes for a very tempting substitute.

Even better is a WRX motor, but they are a bit more expensive, and probably need a front mounted radiator. With a 2.5 NA you can get away with the radiator right smack in front of the engine.

-Tony

[Jake Raby]

QUOTE

I wonder how many of those hi-po type 4s can be dropped in the engine bay without the use of an external oil cooler.

He must have never experienced a DTM on a TIV engine....

Here is a testament to a DTM on a 2270 160HP TIV running NO EXTERNAL cooler in 100 degree heat at 75+ MPH for extended amounts of time..
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=90197

[johnmhudson111]

QUOTE (redshift @ Aug 16 2005, 01:59 PM)

Yeah, you need an oil tank, all the fittings, a cooler, and mounting, and a mount, and.. yeah, the Pelican conversion guide has the list. I thought this thread was a comparison of motors. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif) M

It is, but the inital cost of those items has got to be factored into the decision, IMHO. I know some would disagree but total cost of ownership is what I was thinking of.

If a typical 6 coversion goes for about $10k (from what I have read here) and that is for a 3.0l engine which in stock form put out 188hp according to Porsche what would the cost of a 180 hp 4 be? How long will the 180 hp 4 last? Will the tq curve and hp in the 180 hp 4 be "streetable"? If the answer is much cheaper, just as long, and just as good then the 4 is the best bet. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif)

[Jake Raby]

QUOTE

How long will the 180 hp 4 last? Will the tq curve and hp in the 180 hp 4 be "streetable"

Well....... If you open your wallet and invest in Nickies, some coatings and ceramic lifters all the wear items are basically removed from the engine... Generally the TIV does NOT lose any reliability or longevity when modified CORRECTLY. Making anything other than a theoretical outlook on this is difficult because we are upping the development so fast that the engine gets better every 5-6 months.

As far as being streetable.... As Joe Ricard how streetable my 180 HP /4 is- he drove it...

The TIV MAKES MORE TORQUE AT A LOWER RPM THAN MANY-6 engines ever think about.... The powerband comes on right off idle and pulls hard all the way to redline.

The Hybrid engine in my car has been driven right at 8500 miles this summer by pretty much everyone in the shop... I sometimes drop the hammer in second gear making a turn and spin 60 feet against the rev limiter at 7,800 RPM and it never blinks and eye... Head temps have NEVER been over 310 anmd oil has never hit 210- thats a 10:1 Jake engine with Nickies and the hydrid heads with relocated plugs....

I can crtuise this car through traffic or on the highway and never really notice that it has a 7 pound flywheel and aluminum S pressure plate... until i drop the hammer! If the engine is short shifted its just as docile as a stocker and easier to drive and thats even with carbs!


You have to experience one done my way to understand.

[iamchappy]

You can always pump up the hp in the 6 when you feel 200 horsepowers not enough anymore. I like 300 to 400 turbocharged hp, whats with this 180 hp limit. If thats the factor a well cared for 3.0 six will get you down the road until your car rusts to pieces.

[tat2dphreak]

QUOTE (Mueller @ Aug 16 2005, 02:08 PM)

QUOTE (tat2dphreak @ Aug 16 2005, 12:04 PM) QUOTE (redshift @ Aug 16 2005, 01:59 PM) Yeah, you need an oil tank, all the fittings, a cooler, and mounting, and a mount, and.. yeah, the Pelican conversion guide has the list. I thought this thread was a comparison of motors. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif) M here I thought it was a comparison of the costs... hp vs cost has to include the cost to convert... IMHO, the cost to convert should not be included..the oil tank, the engine mount and other related items are a 1 time purchase...the only thing that should be compared is the cost of the motor and related costs to keeping the motor alive

I see what you are saying, but that 1 time cost STILL works into the overall picture...

ok, the lets say this: assuming you drive your teener 30k/year, and have 180 hp

a big 4: 7500 up front
and about 1.5k every 1.5-2 years(50k miles) or so... for freshening
500 a year for general maintenance (new plugs, wires, cap, rotor yearly, oil every 3500 miles)

a /6: 11k up front
3k every 4 years (120k) or so...
1000 a year for maintenance as above.

at 1 year mark:
the 4 has cost 7500+500 = 8000
the 6 has cost 11000 + 1000 = 12000

2 years:
4: 8000(year 1) + 1500(heads and top-end @1.5 years) +500 =10k
6: 12000 + 1000 = 13000

3 years:
4: 10 + 1500 (top-end and heads at end of 3rd year)+500 = 12k
6 13000 + 1000 = 14k

4 years:
4: 12k + 500 = 12,500
6: 14k + 3k +1000 = 18k

5 years:
4: 12.5k + 1500 +500 =14.5k
6: 18k + 1000 = 19000

even if you do the top-end on the /4 yearly, it will take a while for the overall cost of a /4 to equal the cost of a 6... and I'm being generous towards the 6...

and most of us do not put 30k/year on their teener... I don't put 30k on my wife's car and my car combined!

sure, the 6 needs maintenance less often... it may not even need it at 120k... but the idea is there...

[Marv's3.6six]

Four vs Six vs Other comparison:

Four = Volkswagen/Porsche

Six = True Porsche

Other combo's = bastid stepchild

enough said (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/blink.gif)

[johnmhudson111]

QUOTE (iamchappy @ Aug 16 2005, 02:32 PM)

whats with this 180 hp limit.

the 180 hp number was the factory claimed hp for a stock 3.0l six and I thought it might a good middle of the road number to base the discussion around.

[redshift]

Wayne, you are throwing out numbers of dollars, and missing completely the HP factor.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

The cheap /4 motor you are talking about is DIY, and the expensive /6 is a Not-DIY.


M

[Jake Raby]

Now Thats a Torque curve!!!! Its fed with little tiny 45mm carbs... 9:1 CR and pump gas, pulling the fan through a Tangerine fully muffled Superheader..

(IMG:http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/customers/apokrandt/apokrandtdyno.JPG)

Now show me a six graph with curves that flat at that RPM..... Maybe from a 3.5 or 3.7 based on a 930.

[Jake Raby]

And another
9:1 with EFI

(IMG:http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/customers/bolsen/bolsendyno.JPG)

[Ferg]

I'll let everyone else talk engine specifics, but one point not yet discussed, is resale value. If you have two identical cars, one with a big four and other with a porsche six, which one do you think is going to sell faster and be worth more? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif) My guess is a 3-5k premium for the six car. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

Ferg

[Jake Raby]

Considering one of my engines sold on EBAY for 2K more than the customer paid for it a year earlier I think resale would be pretty good (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/huh.gif)

Thats happened more than once.