 Four vs Six, comparison questions |
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| Ferg |
 Aug 16 2005, 02:16 PM
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#61
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914 Guru  Group: Members Posts: 5,948 Joined: 8-January 03 From: Boulder CO Member No.: 116 Region Association: None 
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It's a whole different ball game when it's sold with the car though... |
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| johnmhudson111 |
Aug 16 2005, 02:38 PM
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#62
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Member Group: Members Posts: 491 Joined: 29-November 04 From: Nesbit, MS Member No.: 3,191 |
Ok, so we have $10k (est) for a 180hp 4 and $10k (est) for a 180 hp 6 coversion. So at this level it is a toss up as to which way to go, either is a cool choice.
Higher than 180hp gets very expensive in the 4 according to Jake, not sure how much but a 3.2 conversion is about $2k more than the 180hp baseline and it gives you 231hp. So it looks to me that after all is said and done that up to 180hp you can't really go wrong with either a 4 or a 6. Each has it's good and bad points and it seems to come down to what you want personally. |
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| tat2dphreak |
Aug 16 2005, 02:43 PM
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#63
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stoya, stoya, stoya Group: Benefactors Posts: 8,797 Joined: 6-June 03 From: Wylie, TX Member No.: 792 Region Association: Southwest Region  |
I'll agree with that, you recoup a little more cost from a /6, still dunno if the math adds up... since you can buy 6 conversions for 12k a few times a year... basically you recoup your inial conversion cost, but not the maintenance... I'd say that is true with a big 4 as well...
I put them both @ 180hp... 2nd line of that post... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif) and yes, I'm saying that a /4 can be DIY maintenance(up-front cost is not, that is about wat jake mentioned earlier in this thread IIRC), most people don't do the /6 @DIY though... and since it's much less often, it would be worth it to have a shop do it... but even if it was ALL DIY, a top-end refresh on a 4(heads, rings, cylinder hone) will be less on a /4 than on a /6... ok, kick up my original estimate to 2.5k every year on a /4 (maintenance AND a yearly freshening) and $1000 maintenance on the /6 with a refresh(3k) every 3 years... it will take 6 years for the /6 to be cheaper in total cost for the same hp... again, maybe it will be longer than 3 years before the 6 needs a refresh, but the /4 will SURELY last more than a year as well... |
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| Trekkor |
Aug 16 2005, 02:45 PM
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#64
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
I've yet to hear how much it really costs to buy a 2270 and bigger FOUR...Actual bottom line delivered price. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif)
And...How long will you need to wait to get it? I can drive 60 minutes any day of the week and hand pick a used 2.4-2.7 SIX for $4k. Most of us don't drive our cars more than a few hundred mile a month, anyway. So let's say you get 25-50k miles on a used SIX. It should last for 5.8333333 years. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool_shades.gif) I'm just sayin' KT |
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| tat2dphreak |
Aug 16 2005, 02:47 PM
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#65
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stoya, stoya, stoya Group: Benefactors Posts: 8,797 Joined: 6-June 03 From: Wylie, TX Member No.: 792 Region Association: Southwest Region |
that's what I'm hinting at... up-front is almost the same... if you want to save money in the longer run... it slowly moves in favor of the 6... longer you keep it, the more the 6 will save you versus the /4... but you will be in the red(4 will be cheaper) for a few years... and yes, this discussion ALWAYS ends the same "whatever YOU will like better..." that's the one you should go with... I was trying to be objective and quantitative as possible... I already said... "I want both" |
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| tat2dphreak |
Aug 16 2005, 02:50 PM
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#66
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stoya, stoya, stoya Group: Benefactors Posts: 8,797 Joined: 6-June 03 From: Wylie, TX Member No.: 792 Region Association: Southwest Region |
and if you are only an occasional driver of it as myself, 3k a year will buy you 10 years in a 4 between refreshes... it's all relative (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool_shades.gif) but that same 3k a year will last you almost 20 years using trekkors 50k mile rule. |
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| Matt Monson |
Aug 16 2005, 02:52 PM
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#67
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Member Group: Members Posts: 156 Joined: 9-August 05 From: Boulder, CO Member No.: 4,562 Region Association: Rocky Mountains |
I am kind of with KT on this one, but with a slightly different twist. My logic behind starting with the 2.4 E is to spread the costs out over time. When I get the 2.4 conversion done, I've got 165hp. A year or two down the line when it needs a top end refresh, I replace the P&C's with 2.2l units to bump my compression, rework the heads, and get an "S" ground cam. Then I am at that same 200hp number of the 3.2l guys for a thousand or so less, and have a fresh top end to boot...
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| Jake Raby |
Aug 16 2005, 02:57 PM
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#68
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
As for freshening up:
My engine customers automatically get a freshening up at 50K or whenever they need it or want it for 1500.00 on engines up to 2316cc and 2K for engines larger.... This IF the tear down was routine and no damage was the cause of the tear down.. That includes parts, labor and dyno time- I do it because I want to inspect the engines after long miles. a month or so ago I had a customer buy all the stuff through the store to freshen up his 2270- he spent 725.00. Freshen up a six for 725.00 and I'll send you a free T Shirt! |
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| johnmhudson111 |
Aug 16 2005, 03:04 PM
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#69
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Member Group: Members Posts: 491 Joined: 29-November 04 From: Nesbit, MS Member No.: 3,191 |
You make a very interesting point, it is something worth thinking about. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif) |
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| redshift |
Aug 16 2005, 03:08 PM
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#70
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Bless the Hell out of you! Group: Members Posts: 10,926 Joined: 29-June 03 Member No.: 869 |
It's a deal! I'll take it. Do you need my shipping info now? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) Please, everyone, don't be mad! M |
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| redshift |
Aug 16 2005, 03:10 PM
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#71
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Bless the Hell out of you! Group: Members Posts: 10,926 Joined: 29-June 03 Member No.: 869 |
Head work, for $725.00? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/unsure.gif) M |
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| Jake Raby |
Aug 16 2005, 03:14 PM
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#72
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
Yep.... But only cutting seats and swapping out exhaust valves and all the guides...
I want to see inside the engine after you beat the shit out of it- badly. |
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| johnmhudson111 |
Aug 16 2005, 03:14 PM
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#73
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Member Group: Members Posts: 491 Joined: 29-November 04 From: Nesbit, MS Member No.: 3,191 |
Your shoping the the wrong part of town, why $20 wil get you......oh wait you mean cylinderhead work (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/lol2.gif) |
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| redshift |
Aug 16 2005, 05:49 PM
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#74
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Bless the Hell out of you! Group: Members Posts: 10,926 Joined: 29-June 03 Member No.: 869 |
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/happy11.gif) Doesn't anyone else want to step in this (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/stromberg.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/icon_bump.gif) |
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| MattR |
Aug 16 2005, 06:03 PM
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#75
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 3,279 Joined: 23-January 04 From: SF Bay Area Member No.: 1,589 Region Association: Northern California |
Gimme a dremel and a six pack... I can do dentistry on an elephant or machine work on a six (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif) |
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| Joe Bob |
Aug 16 2005, 06:43 PM
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#76
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Retired admin, banned a few times Group: Members Posts: 17,427 Joined: 24-December 02 From: Boulder CO Member No.: 5 Region Association: None |
Buy one already converted....$$$ way ahead.
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| Joe Bob |
Aug 16 2005, 06:46 PM
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#77
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Retired admin, banned a few times Group: Members Posts: 17,427 Joined: 24-December 02 From: Boulder CO Member No.: 5 Region Association: None |
180 for a US spec motor, 204+ for the euro motor.... They also made smaller bore "S" motors that meet or exceed that hp..... |
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| grantsfo |
Aug 16 2005, 07:02 PM
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#78
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Arrrrhhhh! Group: Members Posts: 4,327 Joined: 16-March 03 Member No.: 433 Region Association: None |
One thing to consider if youre talking turn key 2.4 from Jake with Nickies and all the other quality stuff it requires to make this engine a reliable performer youre signficantly underestimating the cost when compared to a six conversion. I was quoted signficantly more for a fairly basic turnkey 2270 from Jake. Then when you figure the wait time involved and the deposit held for a period of time plus interest it becomes even more unattractive. Even a kit with all the quality stuff, cam, nickies , etc would be bumping into the $7000 to $9000 range once you do all required machine work etc. Then you need new fuel system, headers etc. When you factor the depreciation that the T4 suffers as soon as its installed the cost of a six becomes even more reasonable. In my opinion a well done stock T4 for $5000 to $7000 is a great engine and fairly reliable. It gets the job done. When you get in numbers upwards of $12K to $16K for a quality turnkey big T4 which is more than realistic given you need to upgrade fuel deilvery, exhaust, etc., its clear a six conversion offers significant value over the T4. |
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| Jake Raby |
Aug 16 2005, 07:14 PM
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#79
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
You better be glad that I'm in a good mood tonight.... I swear I could have a field day with that post.....
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| Trekkor |
Aug 16 2005, 07:14 PM
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#80
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
I'm speechless... KT |
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