Four vs Six, comparison questions Options

[Jake Raby]

You'd be speechless if you saw the proposals that read digits over 25K for sure then.......

Building an engine that sells for 25K is very stressful to say the least, dynoing it is enough to make your nerves send you to the Dr..... These big jobs find their way to me more and more every year, and I turn half or more of them down because the customers are jerks and I feel I can't please them.

I have 4 sub 25K engines to build in the next 9 months.....

Of course they are not the mainstream of what we do, these are my projects that take sometimes 200 hours to complete....... (I'm not kidding)

You should price a stock rebuild on a 356 engine.... I start at 10K .... Want to go more crazy?? Price a rebuild on a 547 4 Cam Carrera engine...... 75K+ IF your core is in good shape to get 130 HP!!!

[Joe Bob]

New built/rebuilt motors are VERY expensive.

The best bang for your instant gratification is buying a FINISHED 914/6 .... I sold mine a few years back for 50% of what I had in it....

Gud running sixes can be had for 12-18K.....

[Maltese Falcon]

is my fan spose'd to be mounted facing the firewall ? It's now facing up--is that why the six is so loud ? I haven't been able to drink my Becks near that fan either (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sad.gif)
Marty

[tat2dphreak]

QUOTE (SEEMORE BUTZ @ Aug 16 2005, 08:26 PM)

New built/rebuilt motors are VERY expensive. The best bang for your instant gratification is buying a 914/6 .... I sold mine a few years back for 50% of what I had in it.... Gud running sixes can be had for 12-18K.....

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif)
I agree with you Mike, when I decide to get a /6, I'll get someone else's that they are tired of... THAT is the smartest money

and when I want a big 4, I'll buy a kit from jake... because THAT is smart money there...

[grantsfo]

QUOTE (tat2dphreak @ Aug 16 2005, 06:20 PM)

QUOTE (SEEMORE BUTZ @ Aug 16 2005, 08:26 PM) New built/rebuilt motors are VERY expensive.   The best bang for your instant gratification is buying a 914/6 .... I sold mine a few years back for 50% of what I had in it.... Gud running sixes can be had for 12-18K..... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif) I agree with you Mike, when I decide to get a /6, I'll get someone else's that they are tired of... THAT is the smartest money and when I want a big 4, I'll buy a kit from jake... because THAT is smart money there...

Yep thats the ticket.

[anthony]

I've done a zillion back of the napkin calculations on this. At lower horsepower ratings I think Jake's kit is the way to go. You are getting a new engine. I think that is one thing missing from many calculations. The guys that have done the cheapest six conversions have done so with a cheap engine (2.4 or 2.7) of unknown status and they have done a lot of fabrication themselves to cut the costs down.

If I did my own six conversion it would have to be with off the shelf, top of the line parts. They add up to about $4000 just to put the six cylinder engine in the car. To me that says that I would be wasting my time with a cheap 2.2-2.7L engine. With the six conversion I'd go for no less than a 3.0L SC engine.

Even with a "low mileage" 3.0 or 3.2 there is risk associated with buying a used engine. 3.0s are known for breaking head studs, 3.2s have weak valve guides. Odometer fraud is rampant in the 911 world. It's so easy to swap odometers and knock 80K miles off your car. I personally would not buy a used big six unless it was from a trusted source and it was running and fully tested (leakdown, compression, studs).

The other thing to consider is that when your "low mileage" 3.0 or bigger needs head studs or valve guides, you can figure on a minimum of a couple grand if you can do it all yourself. Figure on $4,000 if you remove the engine and deliver it to a mechanic for an upper end refreshening.

I've gotten rides in or driven various stock 914s, a 914 with a solid 130hp 2056, and a 914 with a hopped up 250hp 3.2L six. The 250hp 3.2 was definitely a thrill but I can tell you that the 130hp 2056 was a solid performer, could scratch the tires in 1st and 2nd, and generally had tons more get up and go than any stock 914 I've ever driven. For me I've decided that the best bang for the buck is a 2056 or 2270 kit from Jake. It will make a 914-4 everything it was meant to be. It will be a well balanced all-around fun ride.

Once you go down the big six route eventually you'll be thinking about a Wevo 915 setup, bigger springs, brakes, flares, etc. If you want to build a $35K 914 then go for it. I'd even highly recommend it if you've got the cash because it's a seriously fun ride.

For those on a budget, also think about getting a 911. I bought a sweet low mileage 911SC for about half the going rate of a stock 914-6 in the same condition. These cars are a blast to drive and a bargain. 911s are also very durable and can do lap after lap at driver's ed or time trial events without a complaint.

[flesburg]

Several years ago after much thought and study, I bought a 43000 mile 87 3.2 engine from the guys in Oklahoma. Had leak down done on it. Seemed solid. Total cost of the conversion was about $10,000. $6500 for the engine and $3500 for parts including clutch, headers, muffler, oil tank, oil cooler, sheet metal etc etc etc the list never ended. We rewired the car for motronic, and the engine is stock except for the headers. All of the work was done by my son and I.

The car is fast, and was scarry fast at first. From 40 to 90 mph it is awsome! It will run with most cars. It is not a dragster, but once you get in second, it is FUN! By the time you need 5th, you are going too fast for public roads around here anyway, so it is really a 3rd and 4th gear car.

For years we ran with a 901 box, but we use the car on the track, and ultimately converted to a 915 box. (another story and another $7 or $8,000).

Knock on wood, but with 1000s of miles on the engine, the only work has been to change oil and set the valves. A couple of years ago the air box failed and was replaced. We have replaced the oxygen sensor once. We set the valves about once a year (have to remove the engine to get at them).

I am sold on the 3.2 engine for long term reliability and the torque it generates, and if you duplicate it, I won't tell, but no corvette will ever embarass you, and neither will any 911 that is close to stock, it even pisses off 930 drivers, up to 120mph. Just tell everybody it is "stock". 99 out of 100 people will not know the difference anyway! Even some guys with 914s will believe you!

[theol00]

I am with our /6 spritual leader

The great Trekkor - " In the future, we'll all have SIXES "


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[Brent]

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Aug 16 2005, 09:49 AM)

i'd rather spend a whole night in bed with 3 cute girls ... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/mueba.gif)  Andy

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/chairfall.gif) Can two be cute and the other not so much, but has great curves.....?

[JmuRiz]

I'm with Anthony, get a mild 130-170HP type IV for the 914 and get a 911 or 930 for my 6-cyl fix. For the price of a really nice /6 conversion you could get an old SC or something that just needs some TLC. I love these engine discussions, always a fun topic.

[goose2]

Yup...the ultimate solution for all is to have a fleet of 914's. I'd like a stock 1.7, a big Raby typeIV, an original 914.6, a big six street car, a V8 (928 powered), a turbo diesel, an electric powered car, and a twin turbo'ed big six tube frame monster. I'd have to sell my house and a kidney but could live in the cars.

[Brent]

QUOTE (goose2 @ Aug 17 2005, 01:48 PM)

Yup...the ultimate solution for all is to have a fleet of 914's. I'd like a stock 1.7, a big Raby typeIV, an original 914.6, a big six street car, a V8 (928 powered), a turbo diesel, an electric powered car, and a twin turbo'ed big six tube frame monster. I'd have to sell my house and a kidney but could live in the cars.

...That my friends, brings up another alternative...the Porsche V8 option, ala Rick's Alien. What was Rick's cost and the HP ratio.

[Brian Mifsud]

John,

Did you mention if you wanted the car for street only, or autocrossing/racing??

Best bang for buck I'm sure is the already converted (but not raced) six. You won't be able to avoid maintenance costs, but at least you aren't paying a premium on initial investment (and won't be physically and mentally worn out from building the car)

I got 3/4 the way into buying all the "right" parts for a six conversion:

True Low mileage '83 3.0 Six (60K miles verified, great head studs, great compression)
Rich Johnson Bulkhead Mount
911 Front Suspension
911 Master Cylinder and Brakes
True 914/6 rear hubs
etc.

Even with a couple of "lucky" finds and great deals it became really clear what further money needed to be spent
(Already $4500 in the hole at this point, but realize without "luck" I'd be more like $6K down the road).

That was without the fender flares and nice wheels, rollcage, and nice paintjob as future "wishlists".

Also, frequent rebuilds of the 901 are to expected with a 3.0 or bigger.

If figured I needed to spend another $5-7 grand for the car to be up to what I really wanted. At that point, I'm up to the price of a new modest sports sedan with way better reliability and fuel economy. I decided to bail. Good news is that Porsche resale prices on parts is great..

[anthony]

The cost in time is huge.

[ArtechnikA]

QUOTE (Brent @ Aug 17 2005, 05:04 PM)

...That my friends, brings up another alternative...the Porsche V8 option, ala Rick's Alien.

the Cayenne turbo-V8 has some beans - anybody put a tape measure on that one yet?

[Crazyhippy]

QUOTE (Brent @ Aug 17 2005, 01:04 PM)

QUOTE (goose2 @ Aug 17 2005, 01:48 PM) Yup...the ultimate solution for all is to have a fleet of 914's. I'd like a stock 1.7, a big Raby typeIV, an original 914.6, a big six street car, a V8 (928 powered), a turbo diesel, an electric powered car, and a twin turbo'ed big six tube frame monster. I'd have to sell my house and a kidney but could live in the cars. ...That my friends, brings up another alternative...the Porsche V8 option, ala Rick's Alien. What was Rick's cost and the HP ratio.

If you want to start talking about v-8's... I can buy a 600+ horse SBC here locally for $3500 (Sprint car motor minus induction (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif) ) I figure i can have it in the car and running for under $8K without much trouble. It's got some killer compression so i'd have to run it on Alcohol (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beer.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/drunk.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beer3.gif) and it would turn a 914 trans into lots of little pieces, but if you want to compare HP/$ it's damned near impossible to beat (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/aktion035.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/flag.gif)

It appears to me that people keep going bigger w/ the motors, start w/ a 1.8, then a 2056, then a 2.4L six, then a 3liter, dreams of going to a 3.6L... I happen to not like all the middle steps, and prefer to do it right the 1st time (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[Eric_Shea]

QUOTE

He must have never experienced a DTM on a TIV engine....

Doesn't (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/stromberg.gif) sell those real cheap like? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif)

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[Trekkor]

Ask Dan Root about the ease and expense of a quick SIX conversion.
What, he's done like 4 in the last year. ( Prolly more ) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

The bottom line is choice, here.

Would you spend $5-8k on a stock rebuilt FOUR or do you buy a good used SIX and convert for $5-8k?

Or...Do you step up and do a NEW BIG FOUR?
Now were talking $12k and up...Way up, as we've seen and heard.

For that kind of money, why would you pass on the BIG SIX?
Up to $25k for an all out high revving monster FOUR. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif)

And now for this...I've never heard of anybody putting a four in their 911. The SIX is where it's at.

Last option if you had to do it, is to put in a good used stock FOUR. I've got my old 2.0 FOUR in my shed, just in case. ( it'll get Webers if that day arrives. Until I find another SIX ) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)


KT

[Oliver]

hey Iam new but what about a turbine ? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/screwy.gif) light runs on #2 and I think they got power (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif)

[tat2dphreak]

QUOTE (trekkor @ Aug 17 2005, 05:48 PM)

And now for this...I've never heard of anybody putting a four in their 911.

I have...


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