Dizzy timing workaround? Options

[torakki]

I'm trying to adjust timing on my 2.0L and ran into an issue. The bolt you loosen, to rotate the dizzy, is underneath the vacuum can. I can't seem to find a tool to get under there to loosen or tighten. I've had the dizzy out and removed the vacuum advance and it's no problem getting to it. Is there something way off with my distributor?
Thanks for telling me the secret.

[worn]

I'm trying to adjust timing on my 2.0L and ran into an issue. The bolt you loosen, to rotate the dizzy, is underneath the vacuum can. I can't seem to find a tool to get under there to loosen or tighten. I've had the dizzy out and removed the vacuum advance and it's no problem getting to it. Is there something way off with my distributor?
Thanks for telling me the secret.

Are you at #1 TDC?

[Dave_Darling]

That looks about right. You should be able to sneak a stubby 10mm wrench onto it from one angle or another.

It is a bit of a pain, but it's possible.

--DD

[emerygt350]

That looks a hair too advanced as well. That would place the can even more over the bolt.

I use a racheting 10mm.

A 123ignition dizzy would solve that....

[barefoot]

Can you invert that clamp which would put the screw on the opposite side ???

[FlacaProductions]

That looks rotated way too counter-clockwise to me. Does it run with the distributor in that general orientation? Are we sure it's the right distributor?

Granted, i'm the guy who can't get my 123 installed/set up correctly but I've spent a lot of time in there recently and have had no issue with the ratcheting 10mm. Either way, don't overtighten that clamp - you can pull the bolt thru. It doesn't take much to clamp the distributor in place.

Here's mine before I started on the 123. Ran well like this but the vac can was no longer holding vac.

[rjames]

I always found it easiest to use a box wrench in there.

[sportlicherFahrer]

Are you at #1 TDC?

Think you're onto something here. Rotor looks closer to where #2 should be. #1 rotor position should be closer to pointing forward/center of car.

[ClayPerrine]

There is a small line on the distributor where the cap mounts. With the motor on top dead center, the rotor should point at the line. So I would say that you have the distributor drive gear installed incorrectly in the case. That puts the distributor off by one wire tower. If the distributor drive gear is installed correctly, then the vacuum can will point roughly at the bail that holds the oil filler onto the case.

[torakki]

Ok, some good info. Let me try and address the comments.
It was not at top dead center, just random, wherever it landed. I've had it at TDC for my starting point. I removed the vacuum can so I could get at the adjusting bolt. Then set to aprox 8 degrees. Ran ok but bobbled a little at first acceleration. Put the can back on with same timing but I could see the advance diaphragm rod changed the timing. It did run but now loud pops. So, as Brian's photo shows, I took the dizzy out, to loosen the bolt and re-oriented it closer to that photo. Now, does not start. Clay, you have me thinking. There is no drive gear but is a notch that goes into a slot inside the case, (top photo). It's slightly off center so you can't get it wrong. But, I'm wondering if I can rotate the dizzy one plug wire over, and move the wires one over on the cap, which would solve the access to the bolt issue. I did get a ratcheting wrench on it after rotating the can clockwise, but, like I said, won't start now. Rotating back, can hits the wrench and then it won't move. Barefoot, great idea, but I though of that too. Problem, the bolt is off center and the dizzy wont seat down far enough to engage the dizzy notch at the bottom. (photo).
I'll start from scratch and ponder the comments and get it back to TDC and rotor pointing at the line. But, not today. I've been trying for years to get this running right. Got close but not there yet. Getting burned out on it.
Thanks for all the responses. I'll follow up next time I get a chance to frustrate myself.

[emerygt350]

You have many 914 gurus nearish to you....

[ClayPerrine]

Ok, some good info. Let me try and address the comments.
It was not at top dead center, just random, wherever it landed. I've had it at TDC for my starting point. I removed the vacuum can so I could get at the adjusting bolt. Then set to aprox 8 degrees. Ran ok but bobbled a little at first acceleration. Put the can back on with same timing but I could see the advance diaphragm rod changed the timing. It did run but now loud pops. So, as Brian's photo shows, I took the dizzy out, to loosen the bolt and re-oriented it closer to that photo. Now, does not start. Clay, you have me thinking. There is no drive gear but is a notch that goes into a slot inside the case, (top photo). It's slightly off center so you can't get it wrong. But, I'm wondering if I can rotate the dizzy one plug wire over, and move the wires one over on the cap, which would solve the access to the bolt issue. I did get a ratcheting wrench on it after rotating the can clockwise, but, like I said, won't start now. Rotating back, can hits the wrench and then it won't move. Barefoot, great idea, but I though of that too. Problem, the bolt is off center and the dizzy wont seat down far enough to engage the dizzy notch at the bottom. (photo).
I'll start from scratch and ponder the comments and get it back to TDC and rotor pointing at the line. But, not today. I've been trying for years to get this running right. Got close but not there yet. Getting burned out on it.
Thanks for all the responses. I'll follow up next time I get a chance to frustrate myself.

There is a drive gear, but it is not attached to the distributor. If you have a Haynes manual, there is a picture in there of how the slot in the top of the drive gear is supposed to be positioned when the motor is at TDC.

[emerygt350]

The more I look at that distributor the more I suspect the plug wires were one to the left.

[fiacra]

The more I look at that distributor the more I suspect the plug wires were one to the left.

I was thinking the same thing... I once looked at a Beetle that the owner was selling because they never could get to run right and the problem the whole time was that they had put the plug wires back on the cap incorrectly. To check turn the rotor so that it is aligned with the notch in the distributor, put the cap back on and make sure that the rotor is now aligned with the plug wire that goes to cyl #1. If not, there's your problem. As Clay said the drive gear could also be off. The distributor shaft end is eccentric and will only mate with the drive gear one way. I once got a distributor back from the rebuilder with this installed 180 degrees off, but in that case your car will never run. If the drive gear was installed incorrectly you've got a bigger job ahead of you, but it is doable. Start with the simple thing that often is done wrong, which is the order that the plug wires were put on the distributor. The firing order is 1-4-3-2. Good luck! Taking breaks and getting a good nights rest often helps with the frustration....

[Superhawk996]

There is no drive gear but is a notch that goes into a slot inside the case, (top photo). It's slightly off center so you can't get it wrong.

Oldest mythology about T4 dizzy

It can go in 180 off but won’t seat fully but will rotate the dizzy (but engine won’t run - not your issue). And as stated above the drive tang to the shaft can be installed improperly if the dizzy itself has ever been disassembled.

Likewise, the dizzy drive is geared on the bottom of the dizzy drive shaft (12 teeth) and it’s not impossible to have that drive gear installed a tooth off (30 degrees). Even if you haven’t touched the dizzy drive, it’s not impossible that a prior owner screwed it up. As mentioned - Haynes manual and factory manual have install procedure and photos of how it’s supposed to be oriented.

Agree with checking all the simple stuff 1st (wires, rotor orientation to distributor body at #1 TDC). The notch in the distributor cap is what establishes the #1 wire in the cap with respect to #1 TDC orientation of the rotor to the distributor body.

[fiacra]

Here's a picture of the position of my distributor and the clamp nut on a 1973 2.0. It's properly timed, or at least very close, and the clamp nut is "easily" accessible and not under the vacuum can. I'm curious to see what you find once you check the plug wire position as well as the distributor gear position. Looks like something is off......

[torakki]

Well, I reset everything from scratch. "O" at TDC, rotor at the line on the dizzy and it started for a second but popping load so timing must be way off. So, what Superhawk996 said about the dizzy not seating right but still rotating the rotor. I found an old photo where the rotor, at TDC is pointing more left. Compared to the photo I took yesterday. I think the dizzy is not sitting in the slot. The car did run very good other than fast idle when cold and slow idle when warm. I discovered the aux air valve was not getting 12V, so when that was resolved, I had slow idle. That's when my timing issues started. And Fiacra shows a great photo of what it "should" look like. Not what mine looks like.
I'll try in the next few days to remove it (again) and re-seat it. Photos with markings are from yesterday. The other is from a few years ago.
Thanks for the great tips.

[cgnj]

The amount of time you have spend noodling around to save time is sunk cost. Do it right and know that it is right forever.

Make sure you're at TDC compression stroke. Pull the valve cove and confirm that both valves are slack.

Here is a pic to help you. I've posted this screenshot at least 5 times in the last 2 years. I should use it as my avatar.

[emerygt350]

Or just use a chopstick to feel when when 1 is at tdc. Put the car in 5th and push it.

[ejm]

Or just use a chopstick to feel when when 1 is at tdc. Put the car in 5th and push it.

Details on using a chopstick to locate TDC are in this link (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)