Dizzy timing workaround? Options

[r_towle]

If you look at the picture from Flaca back about 10 posts take note of the location of the vacuum canister in relationship to the oil breather housing.

As stated, it’s not possible to mount the distributor 180 degrees of because the male key on the bottom of the distributor is off center and will never align with the female groove in the drive gear.

I would suggest you pause.
Set motor to TDC.
Use marks on flywheel, but don’t trust them.
Remove the valve cover and verify the valves are closed on cylinder 1
Remove spark plug and verify tdc on number one.
Remove distributor and get a clear picture of the drive gear in the hole.

It’s not super hard to correct this, but you need to ensure you are indeed starting at TDC.

[Superhawk996]

Or just use a chopstick to feel when when 1 is at tdc. Put the car in 5th and push it.

Be careful with just saying #1 TDC.

Each piston is at TDC twice on a 4 stroke. Needs to be at #1 TDC on the compression stroke.

Keep in mind there are folks out there that don’t know this or don’t connect the dots.

[fiacra]

Or just use a chopstick to feel when when 1 is at tdc. Put the car in 5th and push it.

Details on using a chopstick to locate TDC are in this link (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Just don't break the chopstick.... Don't use a cheap single use one. I pull a valve cover, put the car in neutral and use a remote starter to turn the engine and watch to see what is rocking. Using a chopstick saves you the hassle of pulling a valve cover. You can do the same by turning the key in the ignition, just a lot more jumping in and out to do. Be sure to d/c the coil so you don't actually start the car (or in your case the distributor will be out). If you don't want to do either of those an alternative to pushing the car is to put the rear up in the air, put it in fifth gear, and hand turn one of the rear wheels. The other wheel has to be blocked so that it can't turn.

As superhawk pointed out if the tang on the end of the distributor shaft is in strong enough direct contact with the drive gear it can turn the distributor without it actually being properly mated. In my experience you'll know when the tang slips into the drive gear as you'll feel it do so. Firm pressure down on the distributor while you turn the rotor and you should feel it pop into place. If the O rings are new it can be hard to seat the distributor but you can use a little oil to make it easier. Much easier to tell on a type I if the distributor is properly seated as you can see the base of the distributor directly, but you can use an inspection mirror to get a decent look at the base of the distributor on this engine.

A few random thoughts that may not apply -- with all this work going on just make sure that the rotor is properly seated, that all the plug wires are firmly seated, that no wires have been pulled loose, and that the cap hasn't gotten cracked. My last step before moving forward is always to inspect all wiring in the area I've been working and physically push on all connectors to make sure they are seated. A visual inspection can fool you.

Finally, there are a lot of experienced people in the Northern California area. Not sure where you are specifically located, but a posting asking for someone to come help is not unreasonable and most people are willing to share their time and expertise. In fact, really hard to stop them from doing that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . It's a common joke to say that if you put two experts in a room you'll get three different opinions, but at least having a second pair of eyes and hands, as well as someone to help brainstorm, can be valuable. The connections I've made on workshop days, or going to help others with their projects, have been invaluable in my quest to keep my cars on the road.

[emerygt350]

Or just use a chopstick to feel when when 1 is at tdc. Put the car in 5th and push it.

Details on using a chopstick to locate TDC are in this link (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I can tell you how to do it, but I can't do anything about a person's stupidity. Hopefully we all know these are 4-stroke motors. Although reading the above link makes me wonder.

Back to this issue:

If you roll the car in 5th till the tang in the drive gear shaft is where it is supposed to be in that image, and your fly wheel mark lines up, and you drop the dizzy, the rotor should be pointing kinda towards the timing mark hole and your vacuum can should be more to the right than it was. If you do those things, and any of that doesn't work out, I would then verify the dizzy is in the slot and then verify TDC. I would just use a chopstick, others suggest pulling valve covers and watching valve timing events. Your call. Just don't break the chopstick (only roll the car, don't shove the chopstick into the cylinder, just little way in the spark plug hole is all that is necessary to feel the piston when it is near the top). And it's a 4 stroke, so if you are 180 out, you are on the exhaust stroke.

[VaccaRabite]

When confirming TDC, I've always found it best to get the car up in the air with one rear wheel on a ramp and the other rear wheel dangling. (be smart, and support the side dangling with a jack stand, but you need the wheel free to turn.)

With the car in 5th gear, you can now turn the dangling wheel by hand and it will rotate the motor without having to roll the entire car. You KNOW you are at TDC when the mark lines up on the fan AND the valves are BOTH closed on Cylinder 1. The smart guy takes a moment to mark the flywheel under the car with a paint pen through the inspection hole.

I will usually pull the spark plugs when I do this so that I am not fighting compression, but this is optional.

The bonus is that when I'm doing valves I can lay under the car and watch the valves while turning the motor with my foot (using my foot to turn the dangling wheel). I use the Krusty method (DRAMA!) but if you mark the flywheel with a paint pen for each cylinder TDC you can do it traditional and still not have to get out from under the car. Yes yes, this is OT for this thread, but its related!

Zach

[emerygt350]

When confirming TDC, I've always found it best to get the car up in the air with one rear wheel on a ramp and the other rear wheel dangling. (be smart, and support the side dangling with a jack stand, but you need the wheel free to turn.)

With the car in 5th gear, you can now turn the dangling wheel by hand and it will rotate the motor without having to roll the entire car. You KNOW you are at TDC when the mark lines up on the fan AND the valves are BOTH closed on Cylinder 1. The smart guy takes a moment to mark the flywheel under the car with a paint pen through the inspection hole.

I will usually pull the spark plugs when I do this so that I am not fighting compression, but this is optional.

The bonus is that when I'm doing valves I can lay under the car and watch the valves while turning the motor with my foot (using my foot to turn the dangling wheel). I use the Krusty method (DRAMA!) but if you mark the flywheel with a paint pen for each cylinder TDC you can do it traditional and still not have to get out from under the car. Yes yes, this is OT for this thread, but its related!

Zach

Not to get off topic but...
I like the Krusty method too, you leave the wheels on? I should try that... I didn't think there was enough room for me to get in there with the wheels on.

[torakki]

Haven't had a chance to look at it for a few days but today, start from scratch. Flywheel at TDC "0" mark. Rear wheel raised, put in 5th gear, rotate stub axle with large socket and torque wrench. Chop stick confirms, piston at top. Tongs on bottom of dizzy match with notches and rotor points to line on edge of dizzy. Looks a little different from CGNJ's photo but close, (hard to tell the angle). Matched my orientation to Flacas' photo as close as I could tell. Car starts and pops like it's firing with an intake valve open, then dies. Timing's not even close.
I do have a friend that's a 914 expert but he's one of those guys that has multiple car projects going on, no parking space and two teenagers with activities. But I'll see him next month at a Caras & Coffee, so I'll run it past him.
I've been timing cars for 50 years. There's gotta be something hidden, that I'm not seeing. Something not related to timing. This car ran great other than slow idle after warm. I found the aux air valve had no power, fixed it and started to adjust timing for better idle.
I'll mess with it tomorrow and see if I find anything new. I appreciate all the responses and good advice. Updates soon. Thank you!!

[r_towle]

How is that ground wire inside the distributor?

Do you have a dwell meter?
Is the dwell constant?

Rich

[r_towle]

The pointer to the fan would not be my choice for tdc mark.
The flywheel hole to view it is at the back.

But…if it’s running and popping….FI time

[FlacaProductions]

Rats!
Following closely because it truly sounds like you and I are in a similar boat.
I'm doing a similar install but with a 123 which results in the same sort of "running" - and mine ran great before the 123 attempt.
I can't see what's incorrect here...but it's obviously something.

[Superhawk996]

I would disagree with your assessment that the dizzy drive is in the correct position.

I believe it is off by a tooth

Yours:


Correct example 1


Correct example 2


Factory manual photo reoriented closer to views above

[ClayPerrine]

I would disagree with your assessment that the dizzy drive is in the correct position.

I believe it is off by a tooth

Yours:


Correct example 1


Correct example 2


Factory manual photo reoriented closer to views above

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

You beat me to it. Pull the distributor drive and set it like the picture. Then reinstall the distributor and see what it is doing after that.

Also, make sure you are on TDC. Some fans didn't have the TDC mark, just the 27 degree mark.

[rgalla9146]

The amount of time you have spend noodling around to save time is sunk cost. Do it right and know that it is right forever.

Make sure you're at TDC compression stroke. Pull the valve cove and confirm that both valves are slack.

Here is a pic to help you. I've posted this screenshot at least 5 times in the last 2 years. I should use it as my avatar.

Finally !

[emerygt350]

Not to beat a dead horse here but also make absolutely sure the plug wires are going where they are supposed to be going. Hopefully it is just that 'off a tooth' problem.

[914_teener]

Before any horse gets beaten....why don't you tell us what the history of the car is and the dizzy that's in it before everyone here starts to jump in a rabbit hole or beat a dead horse.


Pray tell what is that on the vac cannister? Pray tell what is the dizzy number?

[emerygt350]

interesting.

[FlacaProductions]

I asked this in post #6.
I forget - has it previously run with this distributor?

[914_teener]

I asked this in post #6.
I forget - has it previously run with this distributor?

Yea...he said it was running ok. Slow to warm up. The moment he messed with the jury rigging he assumed it's the timing.

Details:

What is the history of the engine?
Is it D-jet and are all the spec components working?
Is the harness in good shape? I see strained spade connectors and for sure somebodies been into that dizzy.

I'd get help as suggested. That dizzy's been altered or fixed and I seriously doubt if the car is running stock d-jet that it is the correct dizzy or someone at some time has messed with it.

That's just a quess....but probably the case.

[torakki]

OK, more corrections. I pulled out the drive gear and turned it, (I believe) one tooth. I was feeling confident since it now matches the photos provided. Put it all back together. Starts up, but still a loud popping. I decided to record it, since it maybe something more serious, (youtube video). I checked all the exhaust ports and all around the intake, took the plugs out. Can't find anything that would cause this noise. Broken valve?

The car had this dizzy when I got it. Car ran great other than idle issue. Smooth and snappy acceleration. I had the dizzy apart some years back, cleaned the FI bits and lubed everything. Soldiered one wire (looks sloppy) but works. New cap, rotor, ign. wires, plugs, points. Plug wires have not been moved. I read '73 and '74 had the "0" for TDC. That's where I set it with rotor pointing at # "1". I have been told to change the harness. Trying to recall all the comments and addressing them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1t7uhs9eGw

[emerygt350]

Can you compensate for it when you advance or retard? That sounds like a spark plug is out. Cross threaded plug? If it's a valve, ouch.