Dizzy timing workaround? Options

[Jack Standz]

OK, so you took the distributor out and worked on the vacuum advance parts, right? Now the car doesn't work right?

First suggestion is to put a timing light on it (preferably a dial-back one). Then report back to us exactly where the spark is firing when you turn the motor over. Make sure the light is on the #1 ignition wire and be 100% sure you've marked TDC for #1 on its compression stroke on the flywheel. Do not just go by an existing mark.

Not sure what was done to the vacuum advance mechanism. But, that would be another area to check closely after you're sure you have the initial timing as close as you can.

And, a final guess. Maybe you've created a problem with the injection wiring, contacts, or CS valve?

[cgnj]

Clearly you chose to disregard my advice and set TDC on compression by observing your valve train.
You don't know if you were at TDC compression stoke when you reindexed the distributor gear. Explain to me again why I should continue to offer alive to get your problem resolved if you chose to selectively implement it?

[Superhawk996]

After resetting the dizzy drive; static timing should be set about 8 degrees before TDC in order to start and run well enough to actually set the timing. Engine will not run well at all firing exactly at top dead center.

I listened to the video. Is that noise the sound of it firing? Sounds very odd and is too short to tell much. It also looks like you’re having to move the throttle to get that sputter?

Agree with previous comment to make sure you have haven’t disturbed other connections (mps, trigger points, etc.).

[technicalninja]

The video "did" it for me.
Sounds minor advanced to me during cranking.
Fire up sounds MECHANICAL to me big time!

I'd "base line" that!

Compression test FIRST!
I think you will "find" it there.
That sounds like valvetrain damage or a significant loss of compression backwards through the intake valves or escaping between the cylinder head and jug.
Tiny chance crossed SP wires could make that noise too. Check firing order carefully.

All of the other suggestions regarding distributor indexing have been fine.

One thing that no one has suggested is using the compression pulse to verify if you're at TDC compression or TDC exhaust.
Most engines are a PIA to remove the valve cover to check, the type 4 is easy.
I NEVER remove the valve cover...
You can remove the check valve from the compression tester hose and screw it in the spark plug hole. You now have nothing more than a tube into the cylinder.
On everything except a completely destroyed motor you can rotate the engine by hand (or tire-that's easier on a type4) putting your thumb over the open tube and when you reach the compression stroke you can feel the pressure. Even slow rotation speed will end up blowing your thumb off the tube. It will be obvious!
Rotate up to TDC and you're TDC compression.

I'd check compression first, if fine leave all the plugs out and verify TDC compression using either my method or @cgnj . His is fine too-his will verify TDC compression on a trashed motor where mine will not.

As I would employ a "bump starter lead" mine can be done very quickly.

His requires removing a valve cover.
Adjusting the valves is a common maintenance item that I'd want to do anyway.
I just wouldn't want to do it to a motor that requires removal for repair.

Setting dwell with a dwell meter is a requirement, not an option. You can see dwell on a meter during cranking alone, engine doesn't have to be running.

No-ones suggested checking spark intensity. I'd hold the coil wire 1/4-1/2" away from the case. Personally, I'd kill fuel during this. Have someone turn key to start while watching spark intensity. Should be little blue lightning bolts, sharp electrical crackling noise.
Should look and sound a bit like a stun gun...
I suggest insulated pliers.

Hope this helps!
I'd do a compression test first. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif)

[914_teener]

Guy writes a post about trying to time a mismatched distributor in a TIV air cooled engine and ends up tearing the engine apart.

Yea...I agree...you should pull it and start over. Not.


Check the Brad Anders site....read it three times...check your parts and do all the test there and check back.

[emerygt350]

I agree with ninja and the others, that sounds makes me think a compression test is the next step, and settle down people, it's just troubleshooting a car, nobody owes anyone anything. (Besides patience etc)

[ClayPerrine]

Run a compression check on the motor.

[technicalninja]

I listened to the video a couple of more times.

My money is on something mechanical making that noise.

Probably not compression leaks.

Sounds like you have a spoon in a garbage disposer!

After comp test (which is a 30-minute process max) I WOULD remove both valve covers and check out the rocker arms/valve train crap that I could get to in chassis.

These are bad about pulling the rocker arm studs from the head castings.

Might be repairable in chassis, especially if they are simply loose.

I'd be screaming "TURN IT OFF! Kill it NOW!" if I had that much noise on start-up.

I DON"T EVER recommend removing an engine from the chassis for rebuild without a proper diagnosis.

You need further diag at this time, not an automatic rebuild...

[Jack Standz]

Really?

If the story told is accurate, the car ran well (enough) before messing with the distributor by pulling it out and removing the vacuum cannister. After everything that's been done to "fix" the problems, my guess is the timing is actually off still, especially after removing the distributor drive and re-clocking it "one tooth".

Putting an inductive dial-back timing light on it will tell you if you're getting a spark and when (if you actually have an accurate TDC mark on #1 compression stroke, the last motor we checked TDC on, we used a $15 bore scope to watch the piston as we turned the motor over slowly by hand).

A wild guess is that there's spark, but the points gap could be wrong and the timing off. Eliminating points is one reason to go to electronic ignition, but that's another rabbit hole for another day.

If the car was running well before the start of this rabbit hole adventure, don't see how the motor lost compression or got destroyed by the things done to it as describedby the OP.

[emerygt350]

Did you listen to the video?

[technicalninja]

I was just absorbing what everyone else was saying regarding this problem until I watched the 8 second video.

I wasn't planning on posting at all...

The noise in the vid changed it for me.

Usually, noises are muted via video and most times it's difficult to even hear what the poster is complaining of...

He WASN"T complaining of hideous noises!

Maybe the exact opposite happened in his video and the noises were amplified.

It could be possible.

I may be wrong, I've been wrong before.

Doesn't happen often...

To my ears that video sounds like "the Grim Reaper is knocking on the front door"
and I would not fire that again until I better understood where the noise was coming from.
That noise "deadlines" that for starting in my book.

Compression test and valve train inspection would be first on my list.
These only cost time (maybe VC gaskets) and if a problem is found will save hours of head scratching from frustrating diagnostic results.

I am in perfect agreement regarding the use of an inductive timing light and a dwell meter early on. I just don't think the problem merely ignition related at this point.
Hell yes! I would put both to work during the diagnosis, but I would start with a comp test first on this one.

Possible noise makers: foreign object in cylinder, broken valve spring, rocker arm looseness, miss wired plugs, loose tin or other items bolted to engine.
Loose balancer/hub, loose flywheel/clutch bolts.

The first four could have happened during the ignition work.

These are 50 years old...

914 teener brought up another biggie that I would research early on.
Is the distributor correct of the engine/D-jet FI?
He thinks it's wrong.
I'd bet he is correct!

I'd still do the comp test, valve train inspection before anything else.

Edit: The saddest thing is that it would taken me less time to do the diag than it has taken to post suggestions....

[torakki]

OK, the result is in: I didn't want to tweak cgng anymore, so I started to remove the valve cover. Then, I thought I'd check more comments first and saw a few saying, compression test first, which makes sense since I was thinking a broken valve. All were in the 85 to 105 range, (cold engine, battery not at full), except one. #3 was 0 PSI compression. I removed the valve cover on that side and found a broken spring. I'm hoping the valves not bent but it probably is since the piston was closing it. If it's not bent, I heard you can pressurize the cylinder with air to hold the valve closed to install the spring and retainer. I've rebuilt air cooled 911 engines before but never too deep into a 914. It seems like you can remove the heads without taking the engine out of the chassis. I was planning on changing some leaky pushrod tube seals, so I guess, now is the time.
I want to thank all the commentors with mountains of tips and places to look and comments that showed a lot of research, thinking and knowledge. This started out to be a simple timing issue and went sideways in a hurry, making diagnosing more difficult. Tomorrow, (maybe) I'll start removing exhaust and clearing the way. I'm 65 and it's hard to get up off the garage floor so not looking forward to it.
Thanks again, Bob

[emerygt350]

Well, thank goodness you found it and it isn't something really terrible. If I were you I would pull it. Easy and if that spring broke, I wouldn't be trusting the others. I replaced all of mine last summer (along with some other bits) and it was cheap and easy. These type 4s really are the easiest things to work on. Outside the car.

[technicalninja]

You can check that valve via TDC compression on that cylinder and holding the valve closed by hand as a helper connects air pressure to the compression tester tube (with check valve removed) and if the valve is concentric the pressure will force it closed better than you can hold it closed. You won't hear hissing through the intake.

If it's bent/damaged, you will have audible flow through the intake.

I agree with emerygt350...

Even if the valve is straight, I'd do all the springs and I'd remove the engine.

Out of the car, T4s are GRAVY to work on...

Important tip. If the rocker arms are off and the valves are not part of the equation, you don't have to worry about which TDC you are at.

You really don't have to worry about TDC at all. Off TDC the air pressure will rapidly push the piston to BDC and as the valves aren't involved you can do "leak down" test at the bottom as well.
It's best to get the piston either dead ass on TDC or close to BDC and add the air pressure slowly as just hooking up 100psi to a piston 10% down the bore will SLAM it BDC with violence. You CAN bend/break stuff this way.

Every single engine I build is tested for leak down at both TDC and BDC before the valve operation is added in.
Ring sealing is equally important at both ends of the travel...
I test this immediately after cylinder head installation before I put a bunch of other stuff together.

[fiacra]

Not sure where you are at but if you are close by and you decide to pull the engine to work on it I'd be happy to lend you my Tangerine Racing engine lift plate. I'm in Richmond. I also travel to Berkeley and San Francisco on a regular basis. PM me if you want to borrow it.

[Superhawk996]

Well that escalated quickly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/yikes.gif)

Clearly was more to the story than just the inaccessibility of the dizzy hold down.

Agree with others. Pull engine - it makes zero sense to try to do major engine work with the engine in the chassis.

[Jack Standz]

+1

Yes, pull the motor and have someone fix it right.

Very happy for you that, at least, you've found the main problem.

"Car ran great other than idle issue. Smooth and snappy acceleration." Clearly, not the case.

[emerygt350]

It probably ran that way till the spring broke. Perhaps there was a misfire that put extra strain on the valve spring.

[Superhawk996]

Perhaps there was a misfire that put extra strain on the valve spring.

A broken or cracking valve spring can certainly cause a misfire but a misfire will not break a valve spring.

[technicalninja]

If I was pulling a 914 engine out I'd inspect before making any plans

Everything off the short block.
Inspect everything.
Make plans/set desires.
Ask questions of other members.

I know little about D-jet. This is why I didn't post until the video.
I was LEARNING...
When I heard the Reaper, I thought I SHOULD BITCH!

I'd research the folks on here that are D-jet Gurus...
I'd want to know what can realistically be run with D-jet.
I believe I've seen snippets that say something like 150+ has already been accomplished.

150hp 914 would be a freaking Hoot!

There's probably an easier to hit target...

One build that I might try would be KB stroker flat tops on long H-beams,
Quench BELOW .040 maybe .035.
Biggest cam and compression the Gurus on here suggest.
I'd cheat compression high as I believe the quench above will allow it.
Appropriate valve train upgrades.
Mild port/chamber work. "profiling" is what I call it, not making big changes, port matching intake/exhaust)
SSI exhaust.
Ceramics on crown, chamber and exhaust port.
Appropriate gauges: WBO2 - knock - CHT.
15-30% improvements over stock power and much quicker to accelerate would be my expectations.
The pistons and rods DROP almost 4 lbs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/new_shocked.gif) of weight this way!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif)

Edit: the initial beastie that originally started this post I'd TRASH (maybe saving it for NO) and replace with a 123 set up for D-jet. The Bluetooth one...