Intermittent starting issues (hot and cold starts) Options

[DC_neun_vierzehn]

I recently started having starting issues.

Here's the recent history ...

I had zero starting issues on the car for nearly 2 years of ownership (1973 2.0 w/ a starter relay).

Then, we dropped the motor and sent it off for a 2056 rebuild last year (and Dr. Evil rebuilt my trans at the same time).

When a friend and 914 world regular helped me do the reinstall, the key in ignition switch would not start the car (the car was sitting in storage for about a year waiting for the motor and trans rebuilds). As a temporary solution, we put a remote starter in the engine bay (alligator clips to the starter) and that solved the non-starting problem. Thus, we assumed the starter switch likely needed replaced. I put that on my project list.

I used the remote starter for a few months (and ordered a replacement ignition switch). Before installing the replacement switch, I decided to put the key in to confirm the switch was bad ... well ... it worked! Thus, I started using the key to start the car for the next couple of months without any issues.

Then one day the key in the ignition would not work. It was a cold start. Car was sitting for over a day. So I tried the remote starter ... same thing ... even the remote starter wouldn't work.

So I jacked the car up and put it on stands to inspect starter from under the car. No loose wires, not corrosion, the alligator clamps for the remote starter were still where they should be. I also looked at the starter connections that go to the battery in the engine bay from above ... all looked fine there too. Nothing loose, no corrosion, etc.

So I lower car and I try starting it with the key ... and it worked. WTH? I turned it off. Tried the remote starter. That worked as well.

For the next week or so the key worked.

Then yesterday, neither would work again. This time it was a hot start. I had been driving for about 45 minutes so it was fully warmed up.

So the intermittent starting issues are happening on cold AND warm starts.

So again, I jacked the car up ... looked for anything suspect around the starter ... looked in engine bay for anything loose ... didn't see anything. Then lowered the car and tried the key ... it worked and so did the remote starter.

It's frustrating and I don't want to get stranded somewhere (it's very flat where I live and I can't park on hills to rely on popping the clutch to start the car if the ignition isn't working).

Any ideas could be causing the intermittent issues?

[emerygt350]

I just went through this at the end of last season. I have the ford relay setup. It was the starter/solenoid, I replaced it, the new one worked great for two weeks, then it went, I am now on another one. I had them all checked by my Porsche shop, the first two were dead dead dead. Who knows how long this one will last.

As they were dying the intermittent start was completely random. When it didn't want to go there wasn't even a click. Full voltage at the solenoid.

[emerygt350]

Last little PCA fall tour this was happening to me, luckily I could park on hills, but I did have a push at the gas station at the start.

P.s. the starters were super cheap and with warranty. 80 bucks I think at AutoZone. Picked it up on the way back from the fall tour. Had a race the next day...

[r_towle]

Have you taken a look under the passenger seat at the seat belt relay?

It might be possible that is the flake connection, and unplugging the two large yellow wires from the housing, then connect them together forever.

[emerygt350]

Have you taken a look under the passenger seat at the seat belt relay?

It might be possible that is the flake connection, and unplugging the two large yellow wires from the housing, then connect them together forever.

Isn't that post 73?

[Spoke]

As a temporary solution, we put a remote starter in the engine bay (alligator clips to the starter)

It sounds like using the ignition key and your temp solution are both intermittent. Where do you put the alligator clips? Do you go right to the starter with the wires or through the added relay?

Check this:

Get your voltmeter and measure the yellow wire from the ignition switch to chassis ground. Turn the key to start and verify 12V.

Also when you have the no-start condition with the ignition switch, are the GEN and OIL lights on while trying to crank the engine?

[Spoke]

Just to make sure there is 12V at the battery terminals when you're cranking the engine, measure the battery POS terminal at the clamp, not terminal to chassis ground. Have someone crank (or attempt to crank) the engine and make sure you have 12V.

[technicalninja]

First, I'd over-ground the engine/starter. Make damn sure both positive and negative connections are overkill.

Second, add relay which is done.

Then add permanent bump switch which is done.

If power supply is good and both key and bump switch fail to start you have a bad starter (or a locked motor).

I have been putting Bosch starters and alternators in stuff for four decades.

I've seen a significant increase (from NONE to MANY) in the last 5 years.

Think a 914 is difficult to change a starter on?

Wait till you get a BMW X3...

Bunch of crap on firewall, complete intake manifold, aluminum bolts that MUST be replaced and don't come with starter, BMW dealer is 50 miles away.

All for FREE as the customer did NOT cause the early starter failure.

Even the "good" parts have gone crappy as time progresses...

Another "trick" I try is to lightly tap on the solenoid with a small hammer.
If that makes it work, its bad starter again.
Years ago, I would take the solenoids apart, clean the rear contacts and grease it up. Most of the new stuff is heat sealed and cannot be dissembled.

[wonkipop]

i've got a theory on the old hot start issue with 914s.
and its not to point at the solonoid (its quality) as where the blame is.

but i guess its not the problem here as this one is doing it cold.

my theory is the same as the old vapor lock fuel pump problem.
same source for the probkem.

the fan shroud duct on the type 4 engine is a magnesium alloy.
the gearbox casing is also magnesium alloy.
but the engine is a combination of alumium alloy(crankcase/heads) and steel.

after you shut the car down after a long run or even a run where it gets decently hot.
heat from the engine proper naturally flows via conduction to the magnesium pieces.
in particular the fan shroud casting and the gearbox.
the engine itself cools down (in part) by losing heat to these parts.
which radiate that heat as they cool down.

and the type 4 engine and even the porsche gearbox were not designed with either location in the car (mid engine) in their original design applications (rear engined).

914 underbody cavity or recess from firewall to rear bumper is a beautifully designed heat trap when the car is sitting still and not running after a good longish run.
one big bubble of hot air.

which makes it harder for the fan shroud and gearbox to lose that heat they are radiating after hot shut down.

the primary victims of this are
1) the fuel pump
2) the starter solonoid.

i never had problems with the starter (solonoid) on my old type 3 variant.
pretty much the same bosch starter as on the 914. nor the fuel pump.
the engine hung out the back and could easily lose heat after hot shutdown.
it just escaped as heated air from out the sides of the rear of the car.

i'm guessing much the same for 911s as i have never heard of any persistant hot start problems that 911s of the same vintage having.

mine will do the hot start no start under very specific circumstances.
good hot run. stop the car. leave it for more than 1/2 an hour and less than about 1/1.5 hours. no start. no click even. get under gently tap the body of the start motor and it will start. if left to cool down for longer problem never appears. if started in under approx 1/2 hour from shut down it will start.

its been doing it for 35 years. and i replaced the entire starter motor 30 years ago when bosch were not crap. nothing changed.

i don't blame the components, i blame flaws in the original design of the car.
charming flaws i put up with. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

i've never had the vapor lock problem with the fuel pump.
its still in stock 1974 position.
i put that down to it being an L jet maybe. runs at higher pressure on cranking.
dunno.

if you don't believe my theory on heat conduction flow from alum/steel to magnesium next tie you take your car for a run at the end before you shut down. ppen the engine lid and put your hand on the magnesium fan casting. you will find its cool to the touch while the engine is running. cooling air keeps it cool. shut it down then come back 20 minutes later. touch it. be careful. its very hot.

i have done the same with the gearbox. initially it will be coolish to the touch.
come back 20 minutes later and touch it. noticeably hotter by a lot.

------

present problem discussed here could be a combo of the inherent problem built in to all stock 914s as well as another intermintent electrical problem due to aged wiring in the ignition circuit or the ignition switch itself or a dirty (bad) ground.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[wonkipop]

Have you taken a look under the passenger seat at the seat belt relay?

It might be possible that is the flake connection, and unplugging the two large yellow wires from the housing, then connect them together forever.

Isn't that post 73?

yep. so its not that.

[wonkipop]

I recently started having starting issues.



For the next week or so the key worked.

Then yesterday, neither would work again. This time it was a hot start. I had been driving for about 45 minutes so it was fully warmed up.

So the intermittent starting issues are happening on cold AND warm starts.

So again, I jacked the car up ... looked for anything suspect around the starter ... looked in engine bay for anything loose ... didn't see anything. Then lowered the car and tried the key ... it worked and so did the remote starter.

It's frustrating and I don't want to get stranded somewhere (it's very flat where I live and I can't park on hills to rely on popping the clutch to start the car if the ignition isn't working).

Any ideas could be causing the intermittent issues?

i don't think you will get stranded.
i think jacking the car up and inspecting wires etc on starter is equal of the old gentle tapping of starter motor body. ??
i'll bet if your were out and about and it happened and you tapped the starter motor it would start.
next time it does it in the garage try tapping it rather than jacking it up and fiddling with wires. see if it engages and starts the car.

at least you know you won't get stranded.
best thing about a 914 is that starter is SO easy to get at.
slide in from rear of car with hammer and just gently tap the starter motor body.
even reach up and wiggle the solonoid. don't hit it.

it will confirm the problem (or not).
and also reassure you - you won't get stranded.
you might get dirt on the back of your shirt and pants but. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

you can try the old ford solonoid fix etc.
others have.
i just put up with mine.
i have a blanket in the front trunk for occasions when the ground might be less than pleasant to lie on.

ps 914s roll start real easy in reverse.
you barely need to have them rolling and they will fire right up.
i did it enough times in chicago 30 odd years ago before i got into sliding under and tapping the starter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

[r_towle]

Well, if it’s not that relay, it’s either the ignition switch melted (it happens a lot) of the starter relay is old and stuck.

If heat related it could also be a bad ground strap that loses contact when hot…

I’ve replaced all of these at one time or another…on more than a few of these cars. Not the best long term design….but after close to 50 years, can’t really complain.

[emerygt350]

I thought the OP said he already had a relay fix in place? Maybe I misread that. Anyway, my Porsche guy just hooked up a multimeter to the solenoid and starter and watch the voltage during my start up. All was good but no magic. If you are getting 12.5 to the starter solenoid and the starter and nothing happens, it's the starter and solenoid.

[VaccaRabite]

Sounds like a dying starter to me. Like @Wokinpop said, jostling the starter does the same as tapping it.

Tapping a dying starter will work for a while. Until it doesn't and the starter is totally dead. Usually in the middle of a three day thunderstorm 200 miles from the nearest shelter and with the creek you were camped next to about to start flooding.

Best to just change the starter at home.

I really like the Asian hi-torque starters over the remanufactured Bosche starters. Seem to have better quality, and will sure turn an engine faster.

Zach

[emerygt350]

Sounds like a dying starter to me. Like @Wokinpop said, jostling the starter does the same as tapping it.

Tapping a dying starter will work for a while. Until it doesn't and the starter is totally dead. Usually in the middle of a three day thunderstorm 200 miles from the nearest shelter and with the creek you were camped next to about to start flooding.

Best to just change the starter at home.

I really like the Asian hi-torque starters over the remanufactured Bosche starters. Seem to have better quality, and will sure turn an engine faster.

Zach

I would second that after my experience with rebuilt flaps versions. Next time I will go for the fancy new style.

[DC_neun_vierzehn]

Thanks for the recos, gentlemen. I have a rebuilt Bosch SR15X on the shelf I bought a while back just in case mine died. Guess it's time to swap it in. Will update with results.

[wonkipop]

Sounds like a dying starter to me. Like @Wokinpop said, jostling the starter does the same as tapping it.

Tapping a dying starter will work for a while. Until it doesn't and the starter is totally dead. Usually in the middle of a three day thunderstorm 200 miles from the nearest shelter and with the creek you were camped next to about to start flooding.

Best to just change the starter at home.

I really like the Asian hi-torque starters over the remanufactured Bosche starters. Seem to have better quality, and will sure turn an engine faster.

Zach

I would second that after my experience with rebuilt flaps versions. Next time I will go for the fancy new style.

there is one other car that is known for cooking its starters.
the citroen xm with the PRV V6 engine.
ask me how i know. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

starter sits right under the front exhaust manifold of the east west engine.
all tightly packaged. the radiator assists the exhaust to bake the starter as a bonus.
has similar hot start behaviour to a 914.
i got rid of the XM.
but when i could i would park it with the engine lid up after a run if i knew i had to restart it after about half an hour or so.
there is only so much that starter motor designers and manufacturers can do in the face of stylists and engineers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

someone else has the problem of that citroen now. i gave up. satisfied my brief curiousity about french luxo barges.

i love the 914 so i forgive its sins.
a high torque starter probably is the go but i don;t drive mine often enough to take the leap. and besides its been doing it since 1991 despite the new starter back then.
and so far showing no signs of death, just a bad temper when it comes to exposure to f. piech's baking oven.

[r_towle]

From what I found….the starter solenoid on the starter itself has some very old grease in it that can be cleaned and replaced.

[wonkipop]

From what I found….the starter solenoid on the starter itself has some very old grease in it that can be cleaned and replaced.

i like that suggestion. might give it a go on mine, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[DC_neun_vierzehn]

I wish all 914 jobs were that easy.

Removing and replacing old starter with a rebuilt a Bosch SR15X took about an hour and that included having to recruit a neighbor to assist with the through bolt during installing replacement. Pulling old starter just a one man job.

Now, fingers crossed that the intermittent starting issues will disappear.