1976 fuel injection questions Options

[fiacra]

Glad I don't live in Cali

It ain't bad here. I've lived all over this country (Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, and Ohio), and even spent a few years living abroad. For the most part we have nice weather, skiing nearby, year round driving, good people, the best variety of fresh fruit and produce, no road salt, outdoor sports year round, etc. Personally I wish the requirements to make our cars run as clean as possible were tighter than they are. I love my vintage cars, but they are polluters. Still, they run a lot cleaner than a lot of the vintage American iron and I don't put a lot of mileage on them, so I compromise and try to even it out in other areas of my life AND I make sure my cars run as clean as possible. Nothing wrong with wanting all of us to have clean air to breathe. Just look at how bad smog was in the LA basin in the 70's before real smog restrictions, and at asthma rates around the port areas where diesel emissions are high. You've got to take care of and respect the people around you if you want the same treatment.

[emerygt350]

Absolutely agree. Drives me crazy living in NY trying to pass our pretty lax inspection with my fleet of great running cars and seeing some POS truck spewing garbage into the air because "freedom!". Where in the hell does he get his vehicle inspected? My 40 year old mustang just failed because the rack and pinion leaked a drop while it was in for its yearly ancient car renewal.

[davep]

So Ron, what is the current situation?

[fiacra]

@914incali
@Ron914

Yeah, I'd love to hear how it turned out for both of you, having gone through something similar in the past. Bring us up to date.

[Ron914]

Thanks for checking in . I am still working on my attempt , the holidays put a stop to my projects but I am about to get back to it . I am so close but still searching to find the cause of my high idle about 1200rpm . The car is running great when I drive it but cannot get it to idle down to 850-950 so I can pass smog .As mentioned it was registered and passing smog in California ( as a 49 state car-no cat/egr stuff) from 1985 to 2019 when it was donated to a car charity group. Your inspiration has encouraged me and I expect to get this resolved soon. It will be 3 years since I brought it home and I can't wait to get out and meet my local 914ers at the local cars and coffee get togethers. I am beginning to suspect I might have a bad throttle body. I read a post on Slapshots journey converting his car from carburetors back to D-Jet FI .There was a mention from a member about the oblong hole above the idle screw that makes me suspect. If I cover that hole inside the TB the car almost dies . I have the idle screw adjustment in as far as it will go and cannot bring the idle down . I replaced my TPS board and set the WOT/idle with one from 914 rubber but it made no difference . I have replaced all the vacuum lines and any gaskets associated with the intake . I have moved the ECU adjusting knob and still no change ( I set it to what I read was the normal position @9:00 facing to the drivers side) . When I got the car the motor had already been removed and torn down so I had the bottom end rebuilt with new pistons and jugs to a 2056 and assembled the rest myself . I have not tired rebuilding my MPS as I really don't think that is the issue as the car runs great when driven and it seems like a job out of my skill set at this time ( maybe its something I need to do later).

[Ron914]

I believe it was @ emerygt350 that asked @slapshot what happened if the small oblong hole inside the throttle body was covered up but I do not know what that would indicate .If I cover mine up while car is running it sucks my finger tire and the car will die if I keep it there.

[JeffBowlsby]

Post a photo of that oblong hole so we clearly understand? You are describing a significant vacuum leak that would elevate idle. Perhaps you can cover it temporarily on the outer TB surface such as with a small strip of duct tape or metal adhesive tape, then open up the idle screw on the TB to adjust the idle correctly.

[rjames]

Post a photo of that oblong hole so we clearly understand? You are describing a significant vacuum leak that would elevate idle. Perhaps you can cover it temporarily on the outer TB surface such as with a small strip of duct tape or metal adhesive tape, then open up the idle screw on the TB to adjust the idle correctly.

I think he means the hole that is associated with the idle adjustment screw. if that hole is plugged, changing the position of the idle adjustment screw will have no effect.

On my TB, screwing the idle adjustment screw all the way in still allows for some air from the top of the TB butterfly to pass through.

[emerygt350]

If the idle adjust screw no longer closes off the hole (like mine) that can create a high idle situation. Particularly if your car likes a little extra timing. If your screw is all the way in but the car is still idling high, but dies when you cover the hole, that is your problem. You can partially obstruct the hole with silicon or add a little tape to the end of your idle adjustment screw for the moment.

[Ron914]

I would really like to post a photo or video but lets say I'm not a fan of computers and as I've read on this Forum many old farts like me run in to difficulty with this task hence the reason why I haven't asked any questions through my 3 year journey of getting this car back on the road again . I will make another attempt to do this as Ive read many times "this post is useless without photos". I've read many of the comments on this subject and links so I believe my pics are too high of resolution and I'm not sure about the URL to link my photos. I made the mistake of being talked into a new Apple computer that I struggle with so please bear with me as I attempt to get back to this thread with some photos. The fact that if I cover that hole on the inside bore of the throttle body the car will die and the suction on my finger is pretty strong is what I should figure out. I am a little unsure about covering the hole and possibly sucking tape or silicon into my cylinders. There is one more observation that I have seen a few comments on that I followed but never heard a definitive answer to. My butterfly plate has a hole in it with a screw and nut that looks original because the bottom threads of the screw are peened to prevent removal . I'm not really sure about that as Ive seen some with and with out holes but never the screw in the hole . Anyway I know you all would like a photo but I have company all this week and may not get back onto this until next week . Thank you all for your comments and help. If I've learned one thing from this group it's stick with it and the community will help you solve it . I think I have a really nice survivor car to share that I look forward to getting everyones opinions on oneday .
Thank you
Ron

[emerygt350]

You are all good with that butterfly. That is how they look. And yes the suction will be very strong on that idle circuit. Don't worry about sucking anything in through the idle port. As long as you let it set up it won't go anywhere. Using a little bit of electrical tape on the tip of the idle screw is probably better for you anyway. I use the silicon as I know exactly what is going on in my car. It just sits there until I pry it out with a dental pick.

My suggestion is pull that idle screw out, you will see a rounded portion at the top. Add a little electrical tape to that (avoiding the threads of course) and see if that lets you get the idle to where you need it.

It's been a long time since I read through this thread, are you still using the original dizzy? Have you checked the advance at idle? If it is original sometimes those weights get stuck and the mechanical advance doesn't entirely go away at idle and you can end up with high idle not realizing it is advance causing it.

[burton73]

I would really like to post a photo or video but lets say I'm not a fan of computers and as I've read on this Forum many old farts like me run in to difficulty with this task hence the reason why I haven't asked any questions through my 3 year journey of getting this car back on the road again . I will make another attempt to do this as Ive read many times "this post is useless without photos". I've read many of the comments on this subject and links so I believe my pics are too high of resolution and I'm not sure about the URL to link my photos. I made the mistake of being talked into a new Apple computer that I struggle with so please bear with me as I attempt to get back to this thread with some photos. The fact that if I cover that hole on the inside bore of the throttle body the car will die and the suction on my finger is pretty strong is what I should figure out. I am a little unsure about covering the hole and possibly sucking tape or silicon into my cylinders. There is one more observation that I have seen a few comments on that I followed but never heard a definitive answer to. My butterfly plate has a hole in it with a screw and nut that looks original because the bottom threads of the screw are peened to prevent removal . I'm not really sure about that as Ive seen some with and with out holes but never the screw in the hole . Anyway I know you all would like a photo but I have company all this week and may not get back onto this until next week . Thank you all for your comments and help. If I've learned one thing from this group it's stick with it and the community will help you solve it . I think I have a really nice survivor car to share that I look forward to getting everyones opinions on oneday .
Thank you
Ron

@Ron914
@technicalninja

Sending this to Rick as well.


You are very close to where a few of us old farts live. Let me try to help you with the picture size problem. You phone is taking the pictures at a high resolution and the picture are very large as far as, if you where to open them up in a photo editing program they may be 30 inches wide. I save mine in Photoshop and make the size 15 inches wide. One way to get a smaller Image is to take the images and with your phone and then send all of them to your e-mail and it gives you a choice of sizes. In other words, if there's 5 pictures. You want them to end up being under one 1 MB total and there will be a place to click on. That's the way it is in my Apple phone. Not sure how it works on non-Apple phones but it must.

One more time: I just take pictures and then go to my photos and pick the ones I want to send to my email as a group of a few and it gives me a choice of size for the few.

Best Bob B

[Ron914]

I would really like to post a photo or video but lets say I'm not a fan of computers and as I've read on this Forum many old farts like me run in to difficulty with this task hence the reason why I haven't asked any questions through my 3 year journey of getting this car back on the road again . I will make another attempt to do this as Ive read many times "this post is useless without photos". I've read many of the comments on this subject and links so I believe my pics are too high of resolution and I'm not sure about the URL to link my photos. I made the mistake of being talked into a new Apple computer that I struggle with so please bear with me as I attempt to get back to this thread with some photos. The fact that if I cover that hole on the inside bore of the throttle body the car will die and the suction on my finger is pretty strong is what I should figure out. I am a little unsure about covering the hole and possibly sucking tape or silicon into my cylinders. There is one more observation that I have seen a few comments on that I followed but never heard a definitive answer to. My butterfly plate has a hole in it with a screw and nut that looks original because the bottom threads of the screw are peened to prevent removal . I'm not really sure about that as Ive seen some with and with out holes but never the screw in the hole . Anyway I know you all would like a photo but I have company all this week and may not get back onto this until next week . Thank you all for your comments and help. If I've learned one thing from this group it's stick with it and the community will help you solve it . I think I have a really nice survivor car to share that I look forward to getting everyones opinions on oneday .
Thank you
Ron

@Ron914
@technicalninja

Sending this to Rick as well.


You are very close to where a few of us old farts live. Let me try to help you with the picture size problem. You phone is taking the pictures at a high resolution and the picture are very large as far as, if you where to open them up in a photo editing program they may be 30 inches wide. I save mine in Photoshop and make the size 15 inches wide. One way to get a smaller Image is to take the images and with your phone and then send all of them to your e-mail and it gives you a choice of sizes. In other words, if there's 5 pictures. You want them to end up being under one 1 MB total and there will be a place to click on. That's the way it is in my Apple phone. Not sure how it works on non-Apple phones but it must.

One more time: I just take pictures and then go to my photos and pick the ones I want to send to my email as a group of a few and it gives me a choice of size for the few.

Best Bob B

Thanks Bob ,
That is good advice but now I think my issue is in creating a URL and a place for all those photos I want to share .
Ron

[Ron914]

You are all good with that butterfly. That is how they look. And yes the suction will be very strong on that idle circuit. Don't worry about sucking anything in through the idle port. As long as you let it set up it won't go anywhere. Using a little bit of electrical tape on the tip of the idle screw is probably better for you anyway. I use the silicon as I know exactly what is going on in my car. It just sits there until I pry it out with a dental pick.

My suggestion is pull that idle screw out, you will see a rounded portion at the top. Add a little electrical tape to that (avoiding the threads of course) and see if that lets you get the idle to where you need it.

It's been a long time since I read through this thread, are you still using the original dizzy? Have you checked the advance at idle? If it is original sometimes those weights get stuck and the mechanical advance doesn't entirely go away at idle and you can end up with high idle not realizing it is advance causing it.

Thanks for the info on the butterfly I like the electrical tape since it seems like that is the problem it really has little effect on the idle when I screw it in . I have taken it apart and cleaned the throttle body ,new gaskets ( except for those butterfly shaft seals I've seen mention of) and a new TPS board . I have the original dizzy and I checked the weights and when I blew through the advance hose the weights moved but I will check this again . If the electrical tape helps my idle problem does this indicate I need a new/rebuilt TB ?
My timing seems pretty good but that is another small issue as after installing the motor we found that the one and only red mark on the fan does not show in the v notch and I don't understand why also the air injection pump I had to install covers the viewing hole so I have to remove it each time I want to check .Another member told me I could drill a hole in the rear metal shroud and probably see the mark on the flywheel but I really don't want to drill a hole in the shroud .However the car does run well where I have the timing set now so if I could just get the idle correct I think I could get past the smog test .
Ron

[burton73]

Sending this to Rick as well.


You are very close to where a few of us old farts live. Let me try to help you with the picture size problem. You phone is taking the pictures at a high resolution and the picture are very large as far as, if you where to open them up in a photo editing program they may be 30 inches wide. I save mine in Photoshop and make the size 15 inches wide. One way to get a smaller Image is to take the images and with your phone and then send all of them to your e-mail and it gives you a choice of sizes. In other words, if there's 5 pictures. You want them to end up being under one 1 MB total and there will be a place to click on. That's the way it is in my Apple phone. Not sure how it works on non-Apple phones but it must.

One more time: I just take pictures and then go to my photos and pick the ones I want to send to my email as a group of a few and it gives me a choice of size for the few.

Best Bob B
[/quote]
Thanks Bob ,
That is good advice but now I think my issue is in creating a URL and a place for all those photos I want to share .
Ron
[/quote]

@Ron914
@technicalninja For Rick as well

Ron,

--- creating a URL and a place for all those photos I want to share .----

If you are doing this in a desktop computer, Go to the page to reply to e-mail and go to the button that says choose file. Follow that back to your desktop where you have that image now saved and I make it simple like if it's a wheel, wheel 2, wheel 2, wheel 3. It says file attachment click choose file and find the file and then go add attachment that will put it in the window that looks like this.







Then click: Add into Post and it will look like this



Then it will look like this





And then it will be linked to the image.

Click Preview Post and see if it is what you want and then post it like you are doing.

Give that a try and good luck

Bob B

[technicalninja]

Thanks Bob!

[rjames]

My butterfly plate has a hole in it with a screw and nut that looks original because the bottom threads of the screw are peened to prevent removal . I'm not really sure about that as Ive seen some with and with out holes but never the screw in the hole .

The butterfly should have two screws that hold the throttle body to the lever. Most TBs have an additional hole to allow some air in. There are some butterflies that don't have the additional hole. It sounds like someone blocked the hole on yours using a screw and a nut to compensate for a high idle (vacuum leak).

[emerygt350]

My butterfly plate has a hole in it with a screw and nut that looks original because the bottom threads of the screw are peened to prevent removal . I'm not really sure about that as Ive seen some with and with out holes but never the screw in the hole .

The butterfly should have two screws that hold the throttle body to the lever. Most TBs have an additional hole to allow some air in. There are some butterflies that don't have the additional hole. It sounds like someone blocked the hole on yours using a screw and a nut to compensate for a high idle (vacuum leak).

I guess it could be read that way. Is the hole open or is the screw in the hole? I thought he was describing the screws that hold the butterfly into the rod.

If the tape brings the idle down and that is what they are looking for, I would just go with it and then keep poking. I don't know whether beefing up that screw or the TB itself is the right thing to do. I am not sure there is much you can do to fix the leaking passage. Maybe beef up the idle screw with some jbweld?

[Ron914]

My butterfly plate has a hole in it with a screw and nut that looks original because the bottom threads of the screw are peened to prevent removal . I'm not really sure about that as Ive seen some with and with out holes but never the screw in the hole .

The butterfly should have two screws that hold the throttle body to the lever. Most TBs have an additional hole to allow some air in. There are some butterflies that don't have the additional hole. It sounds like someone blocked the hole on yours using a screw and a nut to compensate for a high idle (vacuum leak).

I guess it could be read that way. Is the hole open or is the screw in the hole? I thought he was describing the screws that hold the butterfly into the rod.

If the tape brings the idle down and that is what they are looking for, I would just go with it and then keep poking. I don't know whether beefing up that screw or the TB itself is the right thing to do. I am not sure there is much you can do to fix the leaking passage. Maybe beef up the idle screw with some jbweld?

I am still working on the photo posts (that probably won't happen until the weekend when I get a chance to figure it out ) .My butterfly plate hole has the screw/nut I mentioned plugging the hole. Should I remove this screw and nut ? Someone went to some trouble to peen the bottom of the screw so the nut would not vibrate off and go into the engine . Last time I had the TB off I shinned my flashlight from the bottom with the butterfly closed and a fair amount of light shines through. I've wondered if maybe I just need to look for a better condition TB but I still want to try the electrical tape of the idle adjustment screw just to see if it makes any difference . It's quite windy today in So Cal so I probably won't pull the car out of the garage today . As soon as I do I will update my results.

[emerygt350]

At the current state I would leave it in the hole, last thing you need is more air. Try the tape, if it brings the idle down to where you need it, go get your pass and then go back to work. As a last resort you could retard the timing a hair to get the idle down. Oh wait. Crap. This thread is so long I can't remember if we covered this. 1976 djets have a vacuum retard only on the distributor
. Is it hooked up? And is it hooked up correctly? That will definitely bring your idle down to where you need it.