Fresh 2.7, doesn't want to wake up Options

[930cabman]

My /6 conversion is going on 3 years as it seems as many do. I had a local old school reputable shop build the stock 2.7, case was done at Ollies, .... should be a great engine. Finally trying to get her barking, but just won't take hold. While cranking she wants to start, but when I release the starter, she conks out. We have a spark (not real significant), timing is close, carbs appear ok.

Is it possible the valves or maybe rings are not sealing because the engine sat for about 2 years?

[mlindner]

I moved the battery to the trunk. Then fabricated a panel to hold both the MSD box and coil. Did have to get a longer coil wire. It does open up the engine compartment a lot. Mark

[930cabman]

I moved the battery to the trunk. Then fabricated a panel to hold both the MSD box and coil. Did have to get a longer coil wire. It does open up the engine compartment a lot. Mark

I left the battery in the stock location and mounted the MSD box where you have the battery.

Somewhere there is a load (short) in the wiring, as far as I know there should be infinite ohms between the + and - battery cables, when disconnected of course.

[Superhawk996]

Got it.

Agree the 170 ohms on the /6 is not ideal

Ohms law: 12v / 170 ohms = .071 amps of parasitic draw. This is more than it should be but not enough that it would account for your starting difficulties. 71mA of current draw is not enough to draw down your battery or cranking voltages. It will however, drain your battery in storage.

Are you using points or some sort of other electronic ignition (Pertronix, Mallory, etc.).

Your MSD box at 12k ohms isn’t the source of the 71mA load.

Focus on the basics. Some sort of electrical short is not the cause of your starting issue.

Example: will the engine start and can it be kept running on brief squirts of starting fluid?

[930cabman]

Got it.

Agree the 170 ohms on the /6 is not ideal

Ohms law: 12v / 170 ohms = .071 amps of parasitic draw. This is more than it should be but not enough that it would account for your starting difficulties. 71mA of current draw is not enough to draw down your battery or cranking voltages. It will however, drain your battery in storage.

Are you using points or some sort of other electronic ignition (Pertronix, Mallory, etc.).

Your MSD box at 12k ohms isn’t the source of the 71mA load.

Focus on the basics. Some sort of electrical short is not the cause of your starting issue.

Example: will the engine start and can it be kept running on brief squirts of starting fluid?

I have used a points/condenser setup for many years, but this project is running a Pertronix 1867A. Starting fluid seems to help a bit, but not enough. While cranking she trys to start, but once I release the key to the run position she dies. I have confirmed with a VOM 10.5 while cranking, 12V when in the run position.

Just about ready to call in the calvary as in a new set of eyes.

Thanks to all

actually quite anxious to get this project rolling down the road, there have been many hurtles

[mb911]

Got it.

Agree the 170 ohms on the /6 is not ideal

Ohms law: 12v / 170 ohms = .071 amps of parasitic draw. This is more than it should be but not enough that it would account for your starting difficulties. 71mA of current draw is not enough to draw down your battery or cranking voltages. It will however, drain your battery in storage.

Are you using points or some sort of other electronic ignition (Pertronix, Mallory, etc.).

Your MSD box at 12k ohms isn’t the source of the 71mA load.

Focus on the basics. Some sort of electrical short is not the cause of your starting issue.

Example: will the engine start and can it be kept running on brief squirts of starting fluid?

I have used a points/condenser setup for many years, but this project is running a Pertronix 1867A. Starting fluid seems to help a bit, but not enough. While cranking she trys to start, but once I release the key to the run position she dies. I have confirmed with a VOM 10.5 while cranking, 12V when in the run position.

Just about ready to call in the calvary as in a new set of eyes.

Thanks to all

actually quite anxious to get this project rolling down the road, there have been many hurtles

Did you do a compression check yet?

[windforfun]

"Ohms law: 12v / 170 ohms = .071 amps of parasitic draw. This is more than it should be but not enough that it would account for your starting difficulties. 71mA of current draw is not enough to draw down your battery or cranking voltages. It will however, drain your battery in storage."

Hmmm... 71 mA is enough to kill you. IMHO, this doesn't sound right.

https://www.galvinpower.org/how-many-amps-will-kill-you/

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

[930cabman]

I sense the compression is good based on the sound of her cranking, will confirm tomorrow

[technicalninja]

windforfun, thought you are an EE Sir!

It's at 12V...

A human will not even feel 1 amp at 12V.

.071 amps X 12 v = .852 watts of power.

You really cannot do anything "automotive" with less than a single watt.
It will slowly take the battery down.
That's it.

Now .071amps at 400,000 volts could fry your ass...

Maybe too many (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif) ?

[930cabman]

windforfun, thought you are an EE Sir!

It's at 12V...

A human will not even feel 1 amp at 12V.

.071 amps X 12 v = .852 watts of power.

You really cannot do anything "automotive" with less than a single watt.
It will slowly take the battery down.
That's it.

Now .071amps at 400,000 volts could fry your ass...

Maybe too many (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif) ?

I would like to think the no start issue is something electrical, but maybe not. Curious as to where the "parasite" could be lurking.

[technicalninja]

I'll put the draw issue to bed with this...

ALL of our modern stuff has memory circuits for different things.
Radio
Windows (auto down and up REQUIRE resetting after disco of the battery)
Seat memory. (same as above)
ECU/PCM (adaptive learning would be lost without it)
Sunroof.
Lots of things I cannot remember right now...

A draw of 71ma is super low for a modern car.

Leave it sitting for 6 weeks and it SHOULD be a dead puppy.

I put marine battery turnoffs in modern stuff that will sit a long time.
I tell my customers how to do the memory resets that will be a requirement every time they disco.


A draw of 71ma MIGHT be a modern radio in a 914...

I don't think a bone stock 914 would have any draws but I might be wrong.

The draw is a "red herring" in the trouble with this car IMO.

[windforfun]

windforfun, thought you are an EE Sir!

It's at 12V...

A human will not even feel 1 amp at 12V.

.071 amps X 12 v = .852 watts of power.

You really cannot do anything "automotive" with less than a single watt.
It will slowly take the battery down.
That's it.

Now .071amps at 400,000 volts could fry your ass...

Maybe too many (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif) ?

Nope. An amp is an amp. Read the link. It's quoted here:

"Electric currents between 50 and 150 mA can cause lethal respiratory paralysis, intense muscle spasms, and a much higher risk of ventricular fibrillation. These currents are thought to be extremely hazardous and necessitate emergency medical attention."

"Yes, 220v has the ability to kill a person. According to some reports, electrical shocks at voltages as low as 42v can cause severe injuries and even death."

This is especially the case with DC & it ASSUMES that your body draws this current in the first place. A 12 V battery won't kill you, but a 42 V battery might if it can deliver enough current & you're standing barefooted on wet ground. This ASSUMES one handed contact with the current going to ground through you. A rubber mat prevents this. With two handed contact the current will go through your heart. I always wear rubber soled sneakers & only use one hand when working on high voltage circuits.

BTW, I don't drink. I just own a brewery & support beer drinking. Cheers.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[mb911]

I sense the compression is good based on the sound of her cranking, will confirm tomorrow

Ok but as I said a few different times if it won’t run on starting fluid it is more than likely timing related to cams or dizzy out. I trouble shot a 2.7 early spring that he actually drove for a year that started very hard but spun over just fine. Cam timing was way off

[Superhawk996]

I sense the compression is good based on the sound of her cranking, will confirm tomorrow

Ok but as I said a few different times if it won’t run on starting fluid it is more than likely timing related to cams or dizzy out. I trouble shot a 2.7 early spring that he actually drove for a year that started very hard but spun over just fine. Cam timing was way off

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Compression check all cylinders with a real gauge. No guessing.

If those are all normal, I’d dump the Pertronix and use a set of points. I am not a fan of Pertronix. There are iterations of the Pertronix that can be destroyed by overheating just by leaving the key in the on position without the engine running for too long.

Do the compression check FIRST.

[Superhawk996]

Hmmm... 71 mA is enough to kill you. IMHO, this doesn't sound right.

I can’t tell if you’re jerking my chain. But since I love to add useless information to threads (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif)

That 71mA isn’t flowing through a person, it’s flowing in automotive wiring.

Using a DMM, measure the resistance from hand to hand. Probably about 2 Million ohms with dry skin. Now wet your fingers that are holding the test leads and re-measure. Probably about 200,000 ohms.

Using a 12v battery as power source and the wet fingers & body we just measured through: 12v / 200000 = 0.000060 Amps or 60 micro amps.

And I lived to tell the tale.

[Superhawk996]

The draw is a "red herring" in the trouble with this car IMO.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Stay on task, don’t get distracted by the parasitic draw. That can be sorted out after you have the engine running.

[technicalninja]

Just remembered a stock 914 parasitic draw...
Only on appearance group cars.
The clock!

[Superhawk996]

Just remembered a stock 914 parasitic draw...
Only on appearance group cars.
The clock!

For what it’s worth:

There are two versions of the clock. Early clocks are mechanical movement. Later clocks are Quartz movement.

Here’s the cool part. The mechanical clocks aren’t a continuous parasitic draw. They pulse to wind the mainspring then the clock runs for a while off the mainspring until a solenoid is triggered, rewinding the mainspring. I love the early clocks just for the sound they make and the pure Rube Goldberg genius nature of them.

See my build thread for a video of a mechanical clock winding. Page 2, post #33.

@technicalninja

[930cabman]

ON TO SOMETHING

as you can imagine, this driving me crazy. MB911 lit a spark with his suggestion of a compression check. I slept on it last night and had a plan. My compression gauge is old school, two pieces. One end threads into the spark plug hole with a male quick connect coupler and the other end contains the gauge with a mate to the female quick connect. Compression with all plugs removed and WOT is 120 + - across the board. I am happy with this as the rings are not yet seated. What got me thinking was having the end threaded into cyl #1 and listen to the compression as I crank the motor. It is looking like the distributor is retarded at least one tooth. As I am cranking the motor over I can hear a whoosh from #1 cylinder at least 20 or 30 degrees before the notch on the distributor body. Just may have found it.

Thanks all contributors, and everyone enjoy the holiday with thanks to those who served to keep us the greatest nation ever

Being the holiday, it looks as though the rest of the day will be spent with my wife, kids and grandkids.

[930cabman]

She lives (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif)

Spark timing was retarded by probably one tooth.

There are many details to be worked out, carbs, fuel pump, generator light, ....

but I can tell by the sound, she is going to rock (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif)

[mate914]

She lives (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif)

Spark timing was retarded by probably one tooth.

There are many details to be worked out, carbs, fuel pump, generator light, ....

but I can tell by the sound, she is going to rock (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif)

It feels good, right?
Congrats!!!! Let the six 914 run with the wild Porsche....
Matt (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif)