pedal cluster roll pin, fixed or not? Options

[mightyohm]

Does anyone know for certain if the roll pins in the bronze bushing kits are any good or not? I read some time ago that they were having quality problems.

Maybe more helpful would be if someone has a pic of the Porsche roll pin vs. the Weltmeister pin. Any obvious differences?

[TravisNeff]

I heard the same about the welty roll pins breaking. I destroyed my factory one trying to get the bastard out, so I ended up using the Welt one, hasn't broken but I haven't driven that 914 much since I did it.

If I remember, the factory pin had more rolls in it than the Welt ones. I can't be sure that was a few years ago.

[mikey]

It's generally recommended that you throw away the Weltmeister roll pin in the kit and find a spiral one. I did so on Brad's and Rich Bontempi's suggestion. Can't compare the two for longevity cause I'm still in the middle of my restoration. But the original spiral type is considered the best. HPH should have them.

The difference is that the Weltmeister pin looks like an O looking at the end, and the original spiral one is like a @. (Don't have a pic).

[mightyohm]

The Welt pin I have is the rolled variety, it has 3 layers in the thickest spot.

I have a stock pin that I saved from my shift console on the transmission, I believe it is the same pin as is used in the pedal cluster. I also think the one I have is factory, and it looks very similar to the Welt pin. The only difference is that the factory pin might be made from a slightly heavier gauge metal? Hard to tell.

If the Welt pins were once made in a non spiral variety I am not surprised that they failed. If they have corrected this then I don't see any reason why we shouldn't use the Welt pins?

[mikey]

Hmmmm. The Weltmeister pin in my kit wasn't spiral. Maybe they've been improved. Not sure how they would stand up to the thicker factory ones. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/blink.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/blink.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/blink.gif)

[ArtechnikA]

i bought 3 factory pins recently, added them to a Stoddard order with a bunch of other small parts.

the pin in my bronze bushing kit (i couldn't tell you if it was a Weltmeister or not, got through PerfProds) was visibly indistinguishable and since i had spares on hand, used it as a test. that was 2 years ago - no issues.

i do believe that once upon a time, the kits came with substandard pins, but the word got back to the producers and they learned. (you can't have a whole lotta Porsche owners pissed at you for very long and not get the message...)

let's face it - the Porsche factory doesn't make the "factory" pins, they buy them from a hardware manufacturer. anybody can buy equivalent pins from the same suppliers...

[mightyohm]

Agreed Rich.

I will take a pic of the Welt pin when I get a chance. If someone has a factory pin on hand we can compare.

I think this is one of those things where a failure is corrected but not before it gets "urban legend" status. (like stainless steel brake lines et al.)

[bondo]

QUOTE (jkeyzer @ Aug 26 2005, 09:38 AM)

Agreed Rich. I will take a pic of the Welt pin when I get a chance. If someone has a factory pin on hand we can compare. I think this is one of those things where a failure is corrected but not before it gets "urban legend" status. (like stainless steel brake lines et al.)

Oops, I forgot to take pictures for you.. I rebuilt my pedal cluster with the weltmeister kit, and it was a "somewhat" old one that I picked up at dunkels 2.5 years ago. It was at the swap meet and was new in package, but not "new" (the guy I got it from had apparently bought it and not needed it, who knows how long ago). It came with a spiral roll pin, but it was made of significantly thinner metal than the original one. I reused my old one because of all the horror stories.

What we really need is to hear from people that have had them break, and whether or not they were spiral type.

I think they mythbusters should do the SS brake line myth.. that would be a fun one. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

[bd1308]

can the roll pin be substituted for some solid metal of the same size?

i could take some brass or aluminum and lathe it down

what size are we talking about?

[bondo]

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 26 2005, 10:21 AM)

can the roll pin be substituted for some solid metal of the same size? i could take some brass or aluminum and lathe it down what size are we talking about?

We are talking about a pin about 3/16" diameter, that holds the clutch pedal to the rod that goes through the pedal cluster which has an arm on it that pulls the clutch pedal. The pin needs to withstand a few hundred pounds of shear force.. aluminum or brass isn't going to do it. A roll pin is nice as it holds itself in place, and the factory steel one does the job just fine. You could substutute a tight fitting piece of an appropriately sized drill bit, but then you would have to devise a way to hold it in place. Something like that may be necessary for some sort opf mega-clutch with insane pedal force, but not for anything near stock.

[Elliot_Cannon]

I installed the Weltmeister bushing kit a few years ago and used the roll pin that came with the kit. After 4000 miles It is still OK. It's just one of the things I'll be rechecking before the ride up to Portland next year.
Cheers, Elliot

[ArtechnikA]

QUOTE (jkeyzer @ Aug 26 2005, 12:38 PM)

I will take a pic of the Welt pin when I get a chance. If someone has a factory pin on hand we can compare.

i still have my stash of 3 factory (via Stoddard) pins; i'll scan them tonight...

[Engman]

Not sure which size but here is a link to the Spirol page

(I use them at work)

Spirol metric pins

M

[ArtechnikA]

QUOTE (Engman @ Aug 26 2005, 01:42 PM)

Not sure which size...

900.309.002.00 -- pin - S 6x28

says ETKA...

[lapuwali]

I just used a bolt and a nut. The clutch pedal was a press-fit on the shaft on my car, so the bolt is only there to ensure it doesn't spin on the shaft over time, or come off if it does loosen up. Has been working fine for several months now.

[bd1308]

QUOTE (bondo @ Aug 26 2005, 11:27 AM)

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 26 2005, 10:21 AM) can the roll pin be substituted for some solid metal of the same size? i could take some brass or aluminum and lathe it down what size are we talking about? We are talking about a pin about 3/16" diameter, that holds the clutch pedal to the rod that goes through the pedal cluster which has an arm on it that pulls the clutch pedal. The pin needs to withstand a few hundred pounds of shear force.. aluminum or brass isn't going to do it. A roll pin is nice as it holds itself in place, and the factory steel one does the job just fine. You could substutute a tight fitting piece of an appropriately sized drill bit, but then you would have to devise a way to hold it in place. Something like that may be necessary for some sort opf mega-clutch with insane pedal force, but not for anything near stock.

got ya....

so the OE ones work fine....until they snap, right?

[John]

About 15 years ago, when I rebuilt my pedal cluster with a Weltmeister kit and the roll pin supplied was just that a roll pin.

The pin did not last long. Luckily it broke in the parking lot at school. I was able to dig through some of the engineering labs and found a bolt that was close to the same size. The bolt, while close in size, was not an exact fit. The bolt lasted for the trip home but that was about it.

I replaced the failing bolt with a "coiled spring pin" as can be found in a good hardware store. These pins are like the name suggests, multiple wraps of the spring steel.

I don't know what comes with the newer Weltmeister kits, but I would check it to make sure that you are not stranded somewhere over a few cent part.



P.S.

did anyone else realize some of the pedal bushings are the same size as the headlight bushings and the bellcrank bushings for a 914-6 throttle?

[jr91472]

I used the roll pin the came in my bushing kit from Pelican. Install about 9 months ago and driven steadily since and no problems.

I have "heard" of these problems as well, but not until I had installed the new roll pin. So, we'll see.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beer.gif)

[ArtechnikA]

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 26 2005, 01:53 PM)

so the OE ones work fine....until they snap, right?

you are having quite a run on obvious questions today, BD - Friday has come just in time...

*all of them* are fine until they snap.
the good ones are fine longer...

this pin is very highly stressed and it gets a LOT of repetitive stress. fatigue will overtake them all, eventually, even if they're somehow able to be kept non-rusty. (corrosion doesn't help fatigue resistance...)

the pin is in double-shear (good) but it still takes a lot of stress, which is why the triple-layer spiral is needed. in case of emergency you might use a 6mm bolt but since it cannot flex like a spiral pin, it will eventually transmit all the stress to the clutch actuating rod, which is fairly thin and just mild steel. a strong bolt (like 12,9) will be brittle and a ductile bolt (8,8) might not be strong enough. (bolts are rated for tensile, not shear, strength.) so eventually it'll wear a nice oval in the rod, or break, or both.

[ArtechnikA]

QUOTE (JOHNMAN @ Aug 26 2005, 01:58 PM)

did anyone else realize some of the pedal bushings are the same size as the headlight bushings and the bellcrank bushings for a 914-6 throttle?

Weltmeister has :-)

they package those bushings in pairs just for throttle bellcrank restoration. (911's use them too...)