Undercoating Questions, Ziebart/Rusty Jones, etc Options

[turtleman]

Those of you who have done complete restorations might be best able to answer some of my questions.

I was wondering if anyone had experience removing a Ziebart undercoating from a car and how much rust was present under that coating? My floorpan appears very solid and rust free, however, I am aware that on occasions moisture can form between poorly bonded rustproofing and there can be much rust under the undercoating.

I assume that cars that were rustproofed at the dealer when they were new might have had a better chance of having betterbonding of their undercoating than cars where the undercoating was applied at a later date when dirt and grease might have made the bonding poor.

I am interested in knowing if anyone had a car that had Ziebart rustproofing that turned out to be relatively free of rust when they removed the undercoating?

Also out of curiosity, I wondered about anyone who had a Rusty Jones undercoating how their car looked after removing the undercoating?

I sure would hate to remove all my uindercoating if it is actuially working and still effective, which appears it is.

I appreaciate any discussion on this topic.

Chip

[McMark]

This is an indirect answer to your question.

I think that a greater rust issue for these cars is the fender sealing foam, not the undercoating. The sealer that was sprayed up in the corners of the fender wells (rear door jamb/sail panel area & rear tail light area especially) is causing most of the problems I'm seeing. Before I would recommend any spend time dealing with undercoating I would make them deal with this foam/sealer.

But more appropriately to your question, I don't think undercoating is a real big problem. If I had a car that I was worried about insufficient undercoating bond, I would take it to a coin-op car wash, put it up on jack stands and remove the wheels and spray it with the pressure sprayer. Anything that's loose will fly away, and anything else will just get clean. So it's a win-win situation.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

[goose2]

QUOTE

Before I would recommend any spend time dealing with undercoating I would make them deal with this foam/sealer.

agree...but how does one deal with the foam?

[bondo]

QUOTE (McMark @ Aug 26 2005, 04:07 PM)

I think that a greater rust issue for these cars is the fender sealing foam, not the undercoating. The sealer that was sprayed up in the corners of the fender wells (rear door jamb/sail panel area & rear tail light area especially) is causing most of the problems I'm seeing. Before I would recommend any spend time dealing with undercoating I would make them deal with this foam/sealer.

I agree.. that foam is evil.. I just extracted some from a rear fender. It isn't actually sprayed in on the rear corner of the fender.. it's a cast foam piece (like the "footrest" foam block) that is stuffed into that corner.. then they put seam sealer over it to seal out moisture. As long as that seam sealer is intact you're probably ok, but once that is breached it's all over.

The front corner of the rear fender IS some sort of sprayed in foam, and it's hell to get off. Even with the fender off I had to burn it out, and even then it took hours. (the vent bit that vents the cabin to the door jamb area is right in the middle of it)

I think the biggest problem with the foam/tar/seamsealer used on these cars is they did it BEFORE painting the car. Any breach in that stuff (that doesn't stick to steel as well as paint) and it's rust city. If they had painted first then did all that we'd be much better off.

Of course this foam stuff won't make your car fold, that's from the battery.. make sure you get a sealed battery in there before it's too late.

[bondo]

rear of rear fender:

[bondo]

front of rear fender:

[McMark]

QUOTE (goose2 @ Aug 26 2005, 03:25 PM)

QUOTE Before I would recommend any spend time dealing with undercoating I would make them deal with this foam/sealer. agree...but how does one deal with the foam?

Hmmm, heat works pretty well. Acid dipping works really well. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

If you have nice paint or some other reason to not use heat (or acid) you just have to muscle it out. A screwdriver works okay. Wood chisels would be nice. It would take a whole arsenal of tools to get it all. You could always try heating the tool and then poking it to help melt the stuff. I would think a hot wood chisel would make pretty quick work of it.

[turtleman]

The responses to this topic have been very informative as to the application of foam in the production of the 914. I was aware that Porsche had utilized the foam as a means of structuraly reinforcing certain areas and it is very interesting seeing the cutaways and cross sections.

However, I am still curious if any of you that have done complete restorations and had a ZIEBART undercoated car can tell me your experiences when you stripped off that undercoating. I am curious if the metal below was predominantly FREE of rust, notwithstanding those areas of weakness such as where Porsche had applied foam or where battery acid may have seeped and been the cause?

Thanks for responding!

Chip

[MecGen]

Hey Dude

If you're looking for a strait answer, you won't get one.

I have used the undercoating on many cars and yes even a 914. It is widely used in the "used car" market to hide Eastern trade marks.... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/barf.gif) Its a good reliable product for what it was designed for...Quick/easy applications for the gross retail market.
Problem with collecting this type of data is, take me for example : I get a car that is 20+ years old, the Zbt was probably applyed only 10 years back, over the rust and dirt etc...Who knows how it looked before?. Impossible to tell how well it worked. It a Preservation (sp) product, not a restoration product.
For a restoration, there are soooo many awsome stuff on the market disigned and produced for this exact application, Ziebart falls to the wasteside.
How did it hold up on my 914...I tell you when I stripp the underbelly in a couple years, I'm going for the Colord bed liner with the POR15 line.
This what I did on the inside
My Tub

Good luck with it, keep us informed on how it turns out..
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ar15.gif)
later

[Katmanken]

I agree with Frank.

It depends is the correct answer.

I lived in Florida a half a block from the beach on the salt coast... er I meant sun coast.

Cars rust like crazy there so the first thing you do after buying a new car is to undercoat it. If you do that, then the car lasts a long time. Buy a used car and undercoat it and you could be trapping salt under the undercoating.

The first one won't rust, the second one will.

Add steel quality to the equation too. Not many people that live near the coast will buy a Honda. Seems they rust even when coated brand new. I bought one new and took it down for an undercoating the day I bought it. It rusted like crazy. On the other side of the coin, my German Superbeetle didn't rust with the same treatment and same environment.

Some undercoating is rust inhibiting and some isn't. In Florida, undercoating is frequently used to hide problems.

So there you have it. No definite answer- it depends.

Ken