Windage tray advice needed, Hole-y baffle plate, Batman! Options

[hmeeder]

I was going through a previous thread on drilling the windage tray, and saw 1 photo of a tray with about 8 quarter size holes in it.

So, as I prepare to assemble my 2.4 I have to ask: why 4 big holes? Why not, say 12 smaller holes? The holes on the tray in this photo are at the junctions and ends of the channels.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-2-1116505290.jpg)

Is the thinking that you want some oil to spend some time with the crank bearings, but not too much time? (else why have the windage tray at all?) Just looking to get some thoughts on this. Actually, this huy seems to have chosen random locations and random hole diameters, so maybe not too much thought went into it after all.

[Jake Raby]

Study the case..... install the tray as a mcok up and you'll see why those holes are positioned where they are.....

The oil returning from the pushrod tubes that has already lubed the rocker gear and valve guides dumps back into the case via a slot positioned exactly where those hoes are cut... The higher the RPM or the more excess oil pressure is ran the worse this is because as pressure increases delivery to the oil galley feeding the lifter bores increases. this increases the oil delivery into the lifter.. Then the oil is further pressurized up the pushrod to the valvetrain... as RPM increases the reciprocation of the pushrods also increase and these two things can fill both valve covers completely full.... A valve cover can hold 1.2 quarts(each) of engine oil, so that only leaves 2 quarts for the rest of the system and the sump- NOT GOOD! If you hit a turn hard the Gs can force tose two quarts away from the pick up and you have no oil pressure, and no volume.

The entire goal is to retain the windage benefits of the plate, but also to SPEED UP the returning oil into the sump as much as possible so it can be picked up and recirculated.. Also stay away from high oil pressures and things will be much happier...

I modify every windage tray in some way- I just did one today for the FP Runoffs engine that I'm asembling as we speak... I have pics of some of them, but can't upload them for some reason...

I go to extremes to keep oil away from the rocker gear on race engines. Street engines that see track time get some of the mods as well, but generally we don't see issues with them because my oil system mods REALLY help with this issue.

Some of the things I do on race engines includes:
-raising the oiling hole in the lifter and reducing its diameter

-Running partially oil restricted pushrods (teflon inserted into the pushrod and then gun drilled for the oil to pass through it and the tips more metered as an added benefit this gREATLY reduces the weight of the pushrod when its filled with oil... lighter= more revs without valve float)

-Removing the piston from the cam oil relief and inserting an orfice with an adjustable jet so the pressure to the lifter bores can be custom tailored... Opening the orfice dumps oil back into the sump and decreases pressure to the lifters/ everything upstream

- In some extreme cases I order pushrod tips that are blank with no oiling holes at all.. Then we run an external oiling system that I have created to the valve covers. The system is tapped into the cam oil galley with a 1/8" NPT adaptor and oil rails are made for the valve covers. I then weld in fittings and tap them for Solex main jets! These jets are positioned exactly between the intake/exhaust valves on each cylinder for max oil to the guides... This allows infinite adjustment of the delivery of oil via a change of the jet in the valve cover- works excellent!

Usually on the engines we do this to we are using DLC coated valves and rocker gear so little friction/heat is present and less lube can be safely ran... Its not a cheap mod...

Anyway- modifying windage trays can DEFINATELY help your oil situation in hard cornering- all your oil ending up in the valve covers is not a good thing.

FYI- I sell modified trays for 69.00-

[hmeeder]

Thanks for the excellent explanation, Jake. Makes sense to me and after doing as you suggested, I can definitely see how they would line up with the oil return from the lifters.

I have heard you speak against excessive oil pressure before, but just curious as to what you consider "excessive." I was concerned that a stock pump wouldn't have the beans to send oil to the front of the car, through an RX-7 oil cooler and back through the filter and into the engine. Are the "high pressure oil relief pistons" a bad idea? Coupled with a Melling 30mm oil pump, is this overkill?

BTW; thanks for all the knowledge and experience you share so generously with us on this board. (I can't find a brown-nosing smilie, so consider one inserted here.) So many of us would be making some serious mistakes without your help.

[Jake Raby]

OIL PUMPS ARE ONLY ONE PART OF THE OIL PRESSURE EQUATION!!!!

Pressure is gained from the engines RESISTANCE to flow... Two engines wit the same oil pump can have oil pressure reading differentials of 20+ PSI...

This is due to the internal clearances of the engine. Tight engines don't need as much oil pump to attain pressure as loose engines do. Basically the oil pressure you see on the gauge is telling you how much oil is being expelled by the bearings as the oil does its job and returns to the sump.

So there is no answer for what is "Excessive" oil pressure, because as soon as I make the recommendation someone will install too small of a pump for their loose toleranced engine and smoke something and I'll be to blame..

Tighter engines need less pump

Looser engines need more pump..

I tend to stick with the 30mm pump and adjust clearances based on the oil viscosity that will be ran and the application/ RPM range...

I try my best to attain 45- 50 PSI @ 3000 RPM with oil at 200 degrees.... If you ever see more than 60 PSI on the pressure gauge at operating temp you could stand to back off one oil viscosity or adjust your oil pressure relief valves to bleed some back into the case...

FYI- High oil pressures also CREATE oil temp issues... Most peopple don't know that the oil pressure relief starts to bleed oil PAST the oil cooler at FORTY FIVE PSI! This means guys that are running crazy pressures are not only cheating themselves on HP from the hydraulic losses through the pump as it works against the oil, but also they are not getting efficient and absolute cooling of their oil...

And if you have the stock oil filter arrangement everything more than 40 PSI bypasses the oil filter!!!!!!

Thats reason # 1,457,986 to switch to full flow oiling at rebuild time......

I have studied the TIV oil system for 20 years and still learn new tricks with it constantly..

I read about guys stating that you MUST have 10 PSI/ per every 1K RPM that you wish to turn to keep rod bearings alive... Well I turn the old 2316 to 8,300 at least every time I drive it and I have the system regulated to 45 PSI max.... My way of setting the running clearances (looser on the mains and tighter on the rods) added with the centrifugal force of the crank helps to really feed the rod bearings with oil....

I am trying something new with the FP engine on my stand right now- if it works it'll really work.... If not you guys will see it scatter on The Speed channel when they air the runoffs...........

Remember that oil volume supercedes pressure, because volume must be present to have pressure and resistance must also... I HATE the stock oil pump and avoid them like the plague. If you are going to run a front mounted cooler go with my full flow set up with the 30mm TI pump... Its the best 130 bucks that you can spend..... Hell it keeps my 3 Liter nice and lubed as well as every other car I own.

[redshift]

Damnit Jake! Awesome shop talk man!

That is useful info, I flash a green light occasionally, and damn I hate that.



M

[914ghost]

Jake, you seriously f*%kin rock.
Seriously...You have the perfect friggen' balance between godd ol' boy backyard wrenching and technical science knowledge.
You know the limits, the reasons they're there and how / when to say to screw em'!
I've been thinking more and more about oil pressure lately.
I wonder why when someone makes a little mod' that seems right everyone follows without really knowing what they're doing.
The T1 into T4 oil pump thing for example. I've torn down a couple hundred T4 engines and low oil pressure is non existant.
Also, in watching my gauges lately:
3000 rpm / 92 temp / AT 180 oil temp my pressure was about 46 psi.
Now, increase the oil temp to 215 twenty minutes later and I get about 28 psi.
The oil is 20-50 castrol, has about 2500 miles on it. I'm doing the same drive today, with fresh oil and filter I'm going to watch what the temp/pressure does.
I left my windage tray stock, I cou;dn't find any reliable info on why / how to modify it.
I wish I was closer, I'd be a great "Intern" at the shop!!
-Insert Monica Lewinsky joke here--

Bob O

[Jake Raby]

Thanks guys...

Ghost,
I could probably find some signs of oil starvation if I showed you a few odd places to look for it...

The stock oil pump is adequate for a bone stock engine. As soon as you add a few more ponies and especially increase the power the engine has at lower revs that isn't true anylonger.... Engines that put out a ton of gross torque and more likely to be lugged and lugging kills lubrication and increases point loading- both of which are double negatives..

So- I don't worry about higher RPM with the stock pump, I worry about the guy that runs too slow in 5th gear or creeps in traffic in 2nd gear when he should be in 1st!

The higher volume pump increases oil delivery at lower RPM and really helps with keeping the engine together.

I hate the stock pump, because I don't build a bone stock engine and haven't for about 10 years!!!! If someone wants to utilize my services, they are wasting their money paying me to build a stocker- plus its too damn boring and easy..... I like the ones that I get to see a big result from (or a big failure if I screw up)

[Brando]

Jake, a question or two... You may have gone over this already... But can't you modify the case to lower or increase your system's pressure? Like you say, more volume not pressure right? How can you increase the volume of oil lubricating the engine internals?

And... I'm going full flow with a 38mm pump... running lines all the way up to the front, will that suffice?