Explain the 300 dollar shock to me, What the... Options

[mepstein]

Back in here because the “Boge” front inserts advertised by a seller here turned out not to be Boge after all, after asking for more details, they said they are actually Kayabas (KYB). Excel-G’s, supposedly OEM spec. Anyone tried running those? I have had good experiences with their Gas-A-Justs iin other cars - but only standard shocks, not strut inserts.

KYB's are generally considered to be terrible. I had them on two 914's. They suck.

[Superhawk996]

… supposedly OEM spec.

Welcome to the aftermarket world of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif)

Everyone claims OEM spec . . . But somehow they don’t have or won’t provide the data to prove it. Not just talking dampers here. It pertains to brake pads, rubber seals, plastic bits, sheetmetal, pretty much all of it.

[mepstein]

Back in here because the “Boge” front inserts advertised by a seller here turned out not to be Boge after all, after asking for more details, they said they are actually Kayabas (KYB). Excel-G’s, supposedly OEM spec. Anyone tried running those? I have had good experiences with their Gas-A-Justs iin other cars - but only standard shocks, not strut inserts.

Was that a private seller or a shop?

[chmillman]

KYB's are generally considered to be terrible. I had them on two 914's. They suck.

Oh well, that's too bad, I was hoping for a way out there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) So only my choices appear to be the Koni adjustables (hopefully can adjust them softer than the Bilsteins?) or the Boge repros from AA with huge overseas shipping costs... Any other alternatives welcome.

Was that a private seller or a shop?

Shop. One of the largest online sellers of Porsche parts in Europe, RosePassion. The picture of the listed item is in post #24 above in this thread. At least they had the honesty to let me know that they weren't real Boge. OTOH, If I hadn't e-mailed and specifically asked them to confirm, they probably would have just shipped the KYB's.

[mepstein]

In my experience, Koni’s can be adjusted much softer than Bil’s. My business partner at the shop is a big fan of Bilsteins. I’m not, at least on light cars. I think they are fine for the mid year on up 911’s but I think they are too harsh for the front of a light weight car like a 914 or early 911. Now if you send them out and get them custom valved, that’s another story.
All the other stuff matters as well. I always ran my tire pressure on the low side on stock 914’s because it felt better to me - at least with the tires I had on the car. Like superhawk said, there’s a lot that goes into suspension tuning.

[Superhawk996]

Seems you’re hooked into Boge as a brand.

Consider ZF owns Boge, Sachs, and Lemforder. That may open up some European options.

[chmillman]

Seems you’re hooked into Boge as a brand.

Consider ZF owns Boge, Sachs, and Lemforder. That may open up some European options.

Nope. Just looking for alternatives. Yes, I know that they are all part of ZF. Haven't found any inserts that fit from Sachs or others yet... If you find them let me know.

All what I found here so far are pretty much the same ones available in the US - Koni (yellow), Bilstein and KYB.

[rjames]

I went from kybs to koni adjustable shocks and struts last year. I noticed a big difference, but ymmv. I have them set right in the middle of their adjustment and the ride is very good.
Note- the adjustment changes the rebound, not how easily they compress.

[DRPHIL914]

ive been reading thru the comments on your thread here because I also have been researching which inserts to purchase as i am ready to install my 911 front suspension for the full 5 lug conversion, and my new stuff i have from Bruce Stone is the Boge not bilistein so i either have to get the Bilistein made for Boge, or the Koni and figuring out which part number is correct is confusion.

Also since i autocross i dont want soft but i dont want harsh either, so is it the B6 i should be looking at if i get Bilistein? also my boge strut set up is for the M callipers and has the internal threads..... if anyone else has used these and set up the same id like to know if they were happy with the bilistein for boge and what part number did you order??

Phil

- sorry for the high jack .

[mepstein]

ive been reading thru the comments on your thread here because I also have been researching which inserts to purchase as i am ready to install my 911 front suspension for the full 5 lug conversion, and my new stuff i have from Bruce Stone is the Boge not bilistein so i either have to get the Bilistein made for Boge, or the Koni and figuring out which part number is correct is confusion.

Also since i autocross i dont want soft but i dont want harsh either, so is it the B6 i should be looking at if i get Bilistein? also my boge strut set up is for the M callipers and has the internal threads..... if anyone else has used these and set up the same id like to know if they were happy with the bilistein for boge and what part number did you order??

Phil

- sorry for the high jack .

Phil - if you are using 3” caliper spacing on the 911 struts, you could reuse your current inserts if you like them.

[Superhawk996]

Seems you’re hooked into Boge as a brand.

Consider ZF owns Boge, Sachs, and Lemforder. That may open up some European options.

Nope. Just looking for alternatives. Yes, I know that they are all part of ZF. Haven't found any inserts that fit from Sachs or others yet... If you find them let me know.

All what I found here so far are pretty much the same ones available in the US - Koni (yellow), Bilstein and KYB.

Let’s go back to basics:

You say the ride is way too stiff. Compared to what?

Do you know what torsion bars are on the car? If someone has put 21mm torsion bars in there you’re never going to like the ride regardless of the damper.

Do you know which version of Bilstein’s you have on the car? Some of the Bilsteins aren’t even supposed to use an external jounce bumper yet sometimes they get added in because the prior owner took them off something else and assumed they should be moved over.

Where’s your ride height - are you getting into the jounce bumpers too early? This will make the ride very harsh.

What is too harsh? The front axle or the rear?

Is it too harsh in compression or in rebound?

[chmillman]

Let’s go back to basics:

You say the ride is way too stiff. Compared to what?

Do you know what torsion bars are on the car? If someone has put 21mm torsion bars in there you’re never going to like the ride regardless of the damper.

Do you know which version of Bilstein’s you have on the car? Some of the Bilsteins aren’t even supposed to use an external jounce bumper yet sometimes they get added in because the prior owner took them off something else and assumed they should be moved over.

Where’s your ride height - are you getting into the jounce bumpers too early? This will make the ride very harsh.

What is too harsh? The front axle or the rear?

Is it too harsh in compression or in rebound?

To answer the questions in order - and from what I know

Stiff(er) - compared to what it was like before the Bilsteins (B6's) were mounted in front. Even small bumps on less-well-paved roads here make for an uncomfortable ride.

Torsion bars - as the only way to know is to disassemble everything I haven't measured - but... I have the invoices from the 5 lug conversion from the 2nd previous owner in 2014. It mentions replacing the struts, hubs etc., but not the torsion bars specifically. There are part prices in there for struts, no mention of torsion bars. It is possible they replaced the entire strut/A-Arm assembly including the torsion bars. As they are actually 914-6 struts, I assume the same 17.9mm stock torsion bars would still be in there in that case. If not, the change would have had to have been made when the car was restored in France in 2011 with the original 4-lug wheels/suspension. I kinda doubt that they would have upped the torsion bars, but who knows... I have no records from the restoration unfortunately. There are 100# Weltmeister springs and Bilsteins in the rear which were most likely put in during that restoration - because I don't see invoices for those anywhere - but again, that's just speculation, maybe I don't have all the records.

The inserts are B6's. The person who installed them knows what they are doing. The ride height looks stock, although I haven't measured exactly. It's not excessively lowered in any case. I don't think I'm hitting the jounce bumpers, I would feel that. I am running 195/65 tires stretched on 7" Fuchs, so they are somewhat stiffer than the original narrower higher profile 165's or 185/70's for sure.

I haven't changed anything in the rear, only the front.

I'm assuming compression damping would more be the cause of the feeling of harshness than rebound, but that again is only an assumption.

[Superhawk996]

Stiff(er) - compared to what it was like before the Bilsteins (B6's) were mounted in front. Even small bumps on less-well-paved roads here make for an uncomfortable ride.

Torsion bars - as the only way to know is to disassemble everything

So to keep it simple - good on old struts - hate Bilstein. (EDIT) were the old Konis taken out the red (softer) or the yellow (sport) ?

I apologize if I’ve missed it in the thread . . . So why not go to a set of Koni adjustable which will let you adjust rebound within a relatively narrow margin?

More often than not what people complain about is rebound damping harshness whether they realize it or not. Likewise that is why most adjustable dampers (ie the affordable ones) are adjusting rebound only.

On the torsion bars I don’t think I’d assume anything with these cars. But having said that based on what you’re describing as just degraded after a damper change I understand the reluctance to disassemble just to know (but I would).

Your tire situation isn’t going to help you at all but again if you were OK with it before the damper swap I understand.

The other thing you need to consider

You were probably used to old dampers that were worn out. Switching to new dampers will feel more harsh. It takes 250-500 miles to really get dampers broken in. Seals have higher friction and damping shim stacks are stiffer until broken in. Sort of assuming you already have those miles covered but putting it out there to not decide too early right after a swap.

[wonkipop]

In my experience, Koni’s can be adjusted much softer than Bil’s. My business partner at the shop is a big fan of Bilsteins. I’m not, at least on light cars. I think they are fine for the mid year on up 911’s but I think they are too harsh for the front of a light weight car like a 914 or early 911. Now if you send them out and get them custom valved, that’s another story.
All the other stuff matters as well. I always ran my tire pressure on the low side on stock 914’s because it felt better to me - at least with the tires I had on the car. Like superhawk said, there’s a lot that goes into suspension tuning.

yes, both you and @Superhawk996 are bringing up the important point that the shocks shouldn't be seen in isolation as necessarily the cause of "harshness".

i found that the tyres i had fitted a long time back in the 90s were the main reason.
lower profile 195s, which i had to put on back then because.......original size tyres were simply NLA across the board in a 15 inch size. even for a VW. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

right now the set up i have is basically what was fitted to an LE in 74 as a lot of those got the bilsteins.

165 stock profile michelin XAS, front and rear sway bars, bilstiens (B6). stock rear springs. i would not call it harsh. i'd call it firm. but certainly not harsh.
i think the tyres play a major part in producing the right kind of balance between comfort and grip. and i run them at stock pressures. softer in the front as @mepstein does.

but......these are not everyday tyres and have a hefty price tag. not really what most folks want. they are fine in the dry as in fact the compound is i doubt nothing like the originals back in the day. (and probably the internal construction as well). but i don't think they would perform anything like a modern tyre in the wet. not that i am going to find out.

i went for this set up by the way out of deliberately seeking to make the car feel and drive precisely as it did in the 70s. purely to enjoy the anachronistic pleasure.
i've got another car for a contemporary experience. its not that i cruise the 914. i don't. but i drive it for what it was to enjoy that "sensation". if i had a Model T i would do the same thing.

seems to me koni adjustables would be the way out of this. a couple of blokes i know run them on their alfa gtvs (late 60s). they do track days with them. but also do street rallys. they seem to like them.

[wonkipop]

ps

this thread topic has been fantastic.
if nothing else for the historical technical info posted.
i never knew that /6 struts had different steering arms.
and i had not realised back in the day you had to get the whole strut if you wanted the bilsteins on your car new. hence the totally green paint on the entire strut.

and of course that makes complete sense.
the boges were trad hydraulic (oil) struts.
and the bilsteins were gas struts (or kind of gas/oil really).
........somewhere along the way bilstein came up with the insert you could simply fit your boge strut. i guess this would have mainly been for the 911 crowd they did this.

anyway. things you don't know.

still can't find any part number on my factory boge struts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
just the date stamps. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[mepstein]

The six front end was basically a 911T suspension with 914-6 part numbers.