123Ignition Static Timing, Engine will not start Options

[emerygt350]

If the cam is off a tooth or three it will.

[SteveNMaine]

If the cam is off a tooth or three it will.

Let's assume that the cam and crank are aligned perfectly.

[emerygt350]

If the cam is off a tooth or three it will.

Let's assume that the cam and crank are aligned perfectly.

Then no. But I wouldn't go assuming anything. That is really what everyone is getting at when they want to you to verify TDC.

When you do verify valve position at TDC, I would use the actual piston position in the cylinder + the flywheel + the fan mark. They should all be dead on with both rockers loose on #1 and knowing that gives justifiable confidence heading into the next step.

[SteveNMaine]

Last year I purchased a 1975 2.0 that had been removed intact, FI and all.

I never started the engine. Over the winter I built it to a 2056 using Ian Karr’s videos among many other resources. Check, double check, triple check, etc. I have rebuilt many engines over the last fifty years; this is my first Type 4.

Block: Refreshed 2.0 oem heads, new 96mm x 71 mm P&Cs, new SCAT C25 cam, CR 8.5:1

Fuel: New dual IDF 40’s (set up IAW Weber instructions), Edlebrock fuel pump #17301 38GPH @ 4-7 PSI,

Ignition: BERU ZS 172 blue coil @ 3.3 ohms, 123/TUNE+ 4-R-V-POR distributor installed according to the instructions (called 123 and they walked me through the installation and basic set up). Spark is white jumps ½ inch. I am not really happy with the spark, would a 1.5 ohm be better?

Timing: I have tried several curves, cranking rpm increases with 10* @ 500 to 28* @ 3000, it “chuffs” but won’t “fire off” past cranking speed.

[emerygt350]

I would still verify, just to be absolutely certain all is well. I know pulling the valve cover is a pain but better to be absolutely certain.


I have almost the exact same setup (73 though) minus the cam and around 8.8 compression. Just like you, many engines but first type 4. I still have the d-jet though.

How crazy have you gotten turning the dizzy while trying to start it? I would probably try it but there is a small chance a bad detonation could hurt something.

I think I would go back and be absolutely certain about TDC and valve position only due to my paranoia about the chance of damage.

[SteveNMaine]

I would still verify, just to be absolutely certain all is well. I know pulling the valve cover is a pain but better to be absolutely certain.


I have almost the exact same setup (73 though) minus the cam and around 8.8 compression. Just like you, many engines but first type 4. I still have the d-jet though.

How crazy have you gotten turning the dizzy while trying to start it? I would probably try it but there is a small chance a bad detonation could hurt something.

I think I would go back and be absolutely certain about TDC and valve position only due to my paranoia about the chance of damage.

I have tried 0* @ 500, 5* @ 500, 10* @ 500 and 15* @ 500 all with 28* @ 3000 at the top setting.

[Superhawk996]

With all due respect - the advance curve has nothing to do with starting.

Average engine RPM during cranking is only a couple hundred RPM’s.

[SteveNMaine]

At TDC the valves 0n #1 are closed, timing marks on fan and flywheel are at 0 and 123 dizzy is set up IAW instructions, engine still won't start.

Any suggestions on coils? It has a BERU ZS 172 3.3 ohm, spark is weak IMHO.

[emerygt350]

All that's left is spark and compression....

I use a Pertronix 40611 Flame-Thrower Ignition Coil, 40,000 Volt 3 Ohm, 12 Volt, Black
Original Bosch is good too though.


12v to the coil?

[Front yard mechanic]

I used the coil from 123 and have the model w/ no Bluetooth the pre set curve I’ve heard is 0 up to 500 rpm after setting the cylinder 1 @tdc and making sure the light comes on with the play in the rotor taken up it runs with the first turn of the key. I’m thinking your coil may be the culprit

[SteveNMaine]

So, I spoke with Ed at 123 and he suggested cranking the engine and turning the dizzy to provide more advance and that worked, the engine did start and run.

I should have remembered that, it is an old mechanics trick I have used in the past.

However, when I adjust the RPM to 900 and turn the dizzy to smooth out the idle, the timing light flashes on the stock 27* mark on the fan.

I'll tackle it again tomorrow, but at least it is running.

[IronHillRestorations]

Good to hear you’ve got it to start (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

27* at idle is not good, considering 32* is a good total advance number.

Here’s a curve that works well with carbs.

[iankarr]

Is there a new cam in the engine? If so, I'd make sure as much is right with the engine as possible so you can break it in for 20 minutes at 2K rpm. You don't want to stop and start with a new cam.

It has a SCAT C25 cam with 96mm x 71mm P&Cs, will that make a difference in the ignition timing?

A new cam has to go through a break-in period. The firt time an engine starts it should be run for about 20 minutes at about 2500. Or whatever combination of time and rpm is recommendeed given your configuration. Glad to hear you got it running. Congrats!

[SteveNMaine]

So, the next puzzle is this; when the 123 is setup according to the installation instructions, the engine will not start.

Ed at 123 suggested advancing the timing manually and the engine did start and now it idles at 7.5* @ 900 RPM and runs smoothly. However, the TDC green alignment light in the dizzy is now at the opposite end of the alignment slot where it comes on at 0* TDC and is turned off.

The dizzy now has no idea where TDC is and using the app to set a curve relies on that setting is right?

[emerygt350]

So, the next puzzle is this; when the 123 is setup according to the installation instructions, the engine will not start.

Ed at 123 suggested advancing the timing manually and the engine did start and now it idles at 7.5* @ 900 RPM and runs smoothly. However, the TDC green alignment light in the dizzy is now at the opposite end of the alignment slot where it comes on at 0* TDC and is turned off.

The dizzy now has no idea where TDC is and using the app to set a curve relies on that setting is right?

As long as the app is giving you what you see with the light I wouldn't worry about it. (truly set and forget in my mind).

Awesome to hear it is idling where it is supposed to be.

[fixer34]

I'm not familiar with the 123 unit, the 50yr old Bosch with points in my -6 works perfectly well. Based on this thread, I'm assuming it is an electronic/computerized version.

Recapping a bit, getting the engine to run is a MECHANICAL function. Piston pulls in gas/air mixture, valves close, piston compresses to TDC, spark plug fires. Power, exhaust strokes; lather, rinse, repeat...

Regardless of how you get the plug to fire at TDC (Ok, BTDC depending on RPM, but you know what I mean..) it has to coincide with the mechanical cycle.
Sounds to me like the 'computer' in the 123 is confused, or its sensors aren't picking up the distributor shaft input(s) properly so it thinks TDC is somewhere other than the mechanical TDC.

Is there a warranty on that unit? You are probably anxious to be driving the 914 but I would send it in to be checked.

[nditiz1]

It is recommended to create a 0 degree file. Make the engine run with 0 timing and recheck the timing with a light. Then you will know the 123 is calibrated. Good to double check again once you are running with the correct curve.

[VaccaRabite]

So, the next puzzle is this; when the 123 is setup according to the installation instructions, the engine will not start.

Ed at 123 suggested advancing the timing manually and the engine did start and now it idles at 7.5* @ 900 RPM and runs smoothly. However, the TDC green alignment light in the dizzy is now at the opposite end of the alignment slot where it comes on at 0* TDC and is turned off.

The dizzy now has no idea where TDC is and using the app to set a curve relies on that setting is right?

I have a feeling you installed the dizzy 180* out.
Pretty common.

If this is the case just flop the plug wires to match it 180 out on the Dizzy end. My 914 ran this way for years, and the T4 engine in the bus I'm building also has the dizzy 180 out (but that ones not on me). Whoever built the engine likely put the cam gear in backwards.

The 123 does not care where it is pointing, so long as the leads are where it expects them to be.
Zach

[emerygt350]

I do this all the time. Not the 180 out but putting the dizzy orientation where I like it. On my mustang if you angle the ignition module on the dizzy differently from stock it keeps cooler, so most old school tfi folks do it

Did the same thing with my 123 so I could have easy access to the hex nut port to change the preset curve without having to pull it.

[SteveNMaine]

So, what I discovered:

The plate under the rotor has four slots that allow you to position the body of the dizzy to make locating the vacuum fitting and/or the wiring more accessible. To align the rotor with the #1 wire on the cap you turn the dizzy until a green light appears in the end of the slot. The instructions do not tell you which end of the slot the green light should appear.

I found a video made by the factory in the NL that shows the green light being lined up at the counter-clockwise end of the slot. I was aligning it at the clockwise end of the slot causing the timing to be retarded.