I thing I found carpet to match oem Options

[SirAndy]

@SirAndy if its possible it might be good to shift this topic to originality.
there is useful information here for folks who might want to get hold of the real deal material for restoring the carpets in their cars.
it might not get lost there.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)

[wonkipop]

A quick follow-up to this excellent thread, I am time challenged at the moment.

The charcoal carpet change for the LEs did occur in about the middle of the LE production. VIN 14854 is a the 9th week car and it clearly has the earlier charcoal carpet, not the salt and pepper later version (photo of 14854 from my files). I have not found a good match for this early charcoal carpet.

To my eye, the later S&P carpet looks very much like the Classic & European L907 Charcoal that Wonk posted above.

i dug in a little further before knocking off last night.

so this white fibre mix in the carpet called hair yarn is exactly that.

originally it was horse hair mixed in with the wool.
the horse hair reinforced the carpet yarn/fibres and made it stronger and long wearing.
as horses disappeared in the kind of numbers they once were in from the urban/rural landscape in the 20th century other animal hair fibres also began to be used.
goat hair being one of them.
apparently this type of yarn was very particular to german manufactured carpets.
almost a kind of tradition in germany.
(more recently its been making a comeback in architectural applications given that it is completely made of natural fibres).

so thats what is going on here.
the base fibre being used is hair yarn with the wool being dyed to the color desired/required. black. brown. tan. in the case of the 73 and 74 914s.
additionally there was one other carpet. a variant of brown which was lighter but this was purely wool carpet fibre without the hair. not hair yarn.

and from there with the base stock this is how the germans did it based on what i can dig up.

first. lowest quailty. needle loom. this is where the carpet is not looped back through the backing. it is simply punched in from on end into the backing layer with a needle tool. this is made from the base black/bown/tan hair yarn.

second. next level quality. loop pile. as the name implies. yarn is looped back into the backing. this is sometimes also described as square weave. but this term is too broad as it does not cover the yarn being used specifically. this pile carpet is german square weave pile made with black/brown/tan hair yarn.

third. top level quailty. velour. this is loop pile stock which is then literally mowed,
like a lawn mower. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) they cut through the base loop pile. it produces something sort of vaguely akin to needle loom except its much denser as final product. and smoother.
reason its expensive is that half the fibres are wasted to make it, being cut off and thrown away. this velour carpet is made with black/brown/tan hair yarn.

all three versions use the same base material.

VWs got the needle loom as the base type of this carpet across the board.
i believe 914s got it in accord with that. more on that later.

VWs also got the loop pile but in higher spec applications.
ie up optioned type 4 sedans, karmann ghias and 914/4s.

Porsche got the velour (cut pile).

all more or less over concurrent time spans. through the sixties and into the early to mid 70s.

----------

i've also gone back over my research material.
i feeling like the evidence points to what i had suggested re needle loom in the USA market for 1974. that is they dropped it from USA market cars.
i'll make another post. but i have dug up the images from my files.

i have the 73 examples and 74 examples. and i have images of the 74 base euro 1.8 held in the porsche museum.

its interesting - and possibly helps settle or at least goes toward helping to settle the question of what should go into a 1974 restoration. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[wonkipop]

There is more @JeffBowlsby

i am going to have to go through this carefully and lay it out for you mr. b
i know you like it unfolded with documentation and logical step by step evidence.

but here is what i have found.

i have taken a very close look at the paint and fabrics documents you have on your website and one such document i have.

firstly there are the documents you have under paint and fabric.
these are the little fold out sheet brochures in 4 languages.
these are printed and prepared in germany.

you also have under technical documents section another set of documents called Porsche Colors. you have one of each for most years. covers all porsche models.
911s and 914s. these are printed and prepared in the USA.

and lo and behold they list quite different things for both markets.

i've narrowed in on the 74s.

i think my hunch is right.
different offerings in europe to the USA.

briefly and i will lay out the material when i get some time because there are a few documents to arrange - for 74 USA it seems only loop pile was available.
but in europe (ROW) it was needle loom and loop pile.

but there is some interesting stuff.
the 73 USA color document says the 914 could only be had with perlon.
perlon is another name for needle loom. same thing.
EXCEPT. you could get loop pile.
and here is how that is evident.
i went through your bills of sale. all the bills of sale for the appearance group cars you have on file for 73 all list PILE CARPET as an option part of the APP GROUP package No Cost. and they make a point of listing it.

but in 74 for the bills of sale for Appearance group cars there is no listing of PILE CARPET under the app group list or anywhere else on the Bill of Sale.
Because........its standard? across the board? thats what it hints anyway.

this accords with my files on the 74 L jet.
i've collected close to 100 examples doing the EC-A, EC-B stuff.
and my files cover interior shots of each car.
not a single one that is reliable and there are a few has anything but loop pile.

so-------its getting interesting.

i'll get right to the bottom of it.
but there is something going on in 74 where the USA cars are quite differently equipped in terms of a base standard when compared to the european cars. they are more upspeced at the base line.

i checked my file on the 74 1,8 in the porsche museum.
it has perlon or as its called needle loom charcoal carpet. no loop pile.
its basic spec that car like the years before. lower than USA basic spec.

more to come.

[JeffBowlsby]

Loop Pile cabin carpeting for USA markets...sounds right.

Of course perlon was used at the front and rear trunks.

The European market cars also had 'corduroy' seat upholstery, at least as an option (not sure if it was standard) but corduroy upholstery was not offered for USA cars.

[wonkipop]

Loop Pile cabin carpeting for USA markets...sounds right.

Of course perlon was used at the front and rear trunks.

The European market cars also had 'corduroy' seat upholstery, at least as an option (not sure if it was standard) but corduroy upholstery was not offered for USA cars.

you basically have all the documentation that establishes what went into USA market cars - and what went into ROW cars for just about every year on your website.

VW of North America or Porsche Audi produced the color sample books/boards for the USA market. you have these filed in your Factory Tech Publications section.

VW-Porsche gmbh Ludwigsburg produced the European (ROW) sample folders for the domestic home market and europe. these are filed in your Paint and Fabrics section.
Although what you appear to have Jeff is something more akin to pages from a parts catalogue with the sample swatches printed in. characterised by being printed in 4 languages. i have the fold out brochures for 74 and 73 which are slightly different format, published by VW-Porsche gmbh in germany and also in four languages. which match the documents you have in terms of range of materials.

its all there. inclusive too of the 911 range in the Porache Audi USA documents.
the differences limitations and the range.

bit time stressed today. but i will lay it all out in orderly fashion.

including additional material that makes it vividly clear. which are window sticker sheets for 73/74.

suffice to say. all and only pile carpet in 74 USA. black brown and cream.
initially at start of 74 using hair yarn. and then as the year went on transitioning to wool with the mottled appearance (or salt and pepper as you characterise it). though the brown also goes to the mottled appearance (seems to occur much later in year for brown probably because fewer brown interiors than black and it took longer to use up exisitng stocks of brown carpet sets at factory?). two color yarn threads is how i would put it for the yarn. at start of 74 its a repeat of 73 except perlon deleted in USA.

ROW in 74. perlon (needle loom) in hair yarn as base. pile in hair yarn as option. pile automatic option on all appearance group cars. whether 1.8 appearance or 2.0 appearance. basically a repeat of 73 but transitioning during year to two color yarn as hair yarn phased out.

-------

as a side note. hair yarn velour (or haargan velour) does not make its appearance in 911 range until 1974. before that 911 have perlon (needle loom) or pile. pile being the option. once velour appears, perlon is no longer used on interior of 911 and loop pile is the basic standard carpet.

hair yarn loom makes its gradual disappearance from the 914 and 911 range during 1974 to be replaced by pure two coloured yarns. my guess on that is the source dried up. carpet factory closure. discontinuted by manufacturer. went out of fashion and broad demand?
animal hair stocks too hard to procure? whatever. but hair loom has only recently come back into production and fashion in germany. i can guess why too. germany has a very advanced consumer attitutude towards sustainability and ecology these days. so hair yarn is back on the table - especially in the construction industry.

[wonkipop]

here goes.

i hope its reasonably logical.

i'm just going to hover either side of 74. too much stuff otherwise.
and .........i'm just diehard on 74 L jets so don't want to wander off too far. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


1973 COLOR SCHEMES.

1. ROW.






This is a document i have from my files.

VW-Porsche document. Printed West Germany. 4 languages. intended for European Market Dealers and Customers.
Notes. 3 basic colors. Black, Brown, Tan.
Available in Needle Loom (aka Perlon) or Pile (loop pile).
both versions of the three are hair yarn.
needle loom standard for 914. pile standard for appearance group.


2. USA




This is a document from Jeff Bowlsby website. Filed under Factory Tech Publications.
a Porsche (presumably Porsche Audi North America) document. Printed in USA.
Intended for Dealers and Customers for color/finishes selection.
Notes. 3 basic colors for 914 shown. Black Brown Tan.
Only Perlon (Needle Loom) for 914 shown.
Under 911 same three colors, but also in Pile along with Perlon.
all hair yarn.
pile standard for some 911s. optional for E and T.
perlon standard for other 911 models and 914 models.
does not mention as optional for 914 but Window Stickers for 1973 list explicitely loop pile for appearance group 1.7 & 2.0.



many more window stickers to examine on jeff's website (wonderful archive).
all say the same. so we know 73 appearance group 914s got the pile.

additionally, this 1973 USA Colors booklet is identical to the 1972 booklet.
there were no changes it seems from 72 to 73 in the USA market.

ROW and USA match in terms of offerings and range.

[wonkipop]

1974 COLOR SCHEMES

1. ROW






This is a document i have from my files.

VW-Porsche document. Printed in West Germany. 4 languages. intended for European Market/Customers.

This document is very similar to a document Jeff B has on his website filed in the Paint and Fabrics section. also in 4 languages. Not sure where Jeff's pages come from. seem to have been in a ring folder. perhaps spare parts catalogue addendum?



Notes - VW Porsche document lists 3 colors as per 73.
in two materials. Needle Loom (aka Perlon) and Pile (Woven Pile).
both versions of the three are Hair Yarn.
needle loom is standard for the 914 and pile is standard for the appearance group.

Jeff's document is interesting as it contains a forth carpet in the pile section.
notably a two color mottled brown. which is what makes me think its actually a spare parts catalogue "update" page of some sort since it would seem to incorporate the mottled carpets that arrived at different times during the 1974 calendar year part of production run.
i even wonder if there is another page missing which might have shown the later two color charcoal?

2. USA




This is a document from Jeff Bowlsby's website and it is filed under Factory Technical Douments. Printed in USA. Porsche + Audi North America likely.

Notes - under the 914 section the only samples listed are now Pile Carpet. 3 Colors.
Black, Brown, Tan (Beige). All still in hair yarn. Needle Loom (perlon) is gone.
Under 911 section the are two different types shown in the 3 colors, one of which is different to the 914 being red. types are Pile and Velour.
In the fine print section there is no description saying which carpets are available in which models in writing.

The listing of pile only for the 74 914 matches what seems to be found in the window stickers. The carpet is no longer listed in the options included in the Appearance group package. As if its not a choice item or an extra over base.





there are more examples filed on jeff's website.
my sweep through them seemed to show they were consistent with the examples shown here.

ROW and USA differ in terms of range and offering.
ROW persists with range on offer 73 (though carpet material changes from hair yarn to two color wool in the pile)
USA drops needle loom (perlon) and offers only pile loom. first in hair yarn and later updating to two color wool.

(As Jeff notes, grey/charcoal perlon continues to be used in the trunks.).

[wonkipop]

1975 COLOR SCHEMES.


USA



This is a document from Jeff Bowlsby's website.
i have not gone too far into 75.
afraid my interest in this level of inquiry ends at 74. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

but it looks like they remain at pile carpet only in 914.
in three colors. no longer hair yarn. all 2 color wool yarn.
one sample swatch is missing from document.
presumably black mottled carpet.

the colors have undergone some revision and the two browns/tans/beige seem much lighter.

presumably this stock and material palette is a direct result of the overhaul that came with the water cooled VW range and in particular the VW scirocco that was then in production at the karmann factory.

[wonkipop]

These are the documents laid out as primary data for members to make their own minds up about.

my conclusion from it is that all 74 USA market models had pile carpet as standard and there was no further option up (or down).

the carpet was hair yarn for the first part of production.
two color wool yarn for the second part of production.

jeff bowlsy has the change over date for the black carpet pretty closely pinned as a result of the LE register info.

who knows when the brown changed over.
from what i can tell from the L jet data i have its later in the production run.
all this only comes about because i have stoopidly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/calvin.gif) collected data on L jets to settle an esoteric question about vacuum hoses. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) that data showed cars only had loop pile. as does my humble base spec 1.8 (with factory optioned sway bars (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

same goes for beige.

beige interior even less common than brown.

anyway its up to restorers to make up their own minds.

i don't think there was any perlon or velour carpet in USA bound factory 914s in 74.
there was velour in 911s.
but thats an opinion and conclusion i draw personally.
and who knows, maybe someone asked for it and was on the inside enough to get it?

they definitely all used hair yarn (while it was on the books) which produced that white fuzzy fibre look.
for that info and break through i am eternally grateful to @scallyk9
cheers mate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[wonkipop]

lets not forget.

either krautrock or new german cheerfulness.

cold war aesthetics. at the front line. the best kind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaSL-a2aFRM...p;start_radio=1

krautrock = sober minimalism of hair yarn ----- kraftwerk anyone.
new german cheerfulness = two color vivaciousness of tartan ------- "beer hall" electr0nic of trio. no one did music like the germans at that time. way out there.

i sometimes wish i had gone to berlin in the late 70s/80s as a lot of young australians did. they let you stay in berlin with generous visa arrangements. which was about the only way you could do a long long stay if you were not of direct british descent to obtain a british passport. i think germany must have been a fabulous place during the cold war era. right on the edge. i went to chicago instead. and it was fabulous.

[wonkipop]

here is the reason i suspect the VW-Porsche 4 language german colour charts on jeff b's website are from some kind of spare parts catalogue rather than a showroom dealer selection brochure.

the pages for the 71 and 72 years contain an interesting detail.




the curious catagory of breadth. or width.
dimension given is 100 cm (i metre).

its only on the earlier pages and is not there on the 74 pages.

its triggered my memory.
this is exactly what i got nearly 35 years ago from the porsche distributor here in melb.
when i went in i took my 73 VW-Porsche color chart which for some reason came with my car (a 74) and was tucked into the owners manual. with the spare parts guy, a lovely chap called Vin (vincent) that everybody of a certain age down here remembers we referenced the brown carpet as a spare part in documents he had. he made the phone call/sent telex later to porsche germany and they checked their warehouse. rang me back at my office. there was a 7m length of carpet roll remaining in stock. i bought the lot. when it arrived it was a roll exactly 1 m wide.
i still have a strip of scrap from the roll with my original LHD carpets.

so you could once buy this carpet by the meter in length and from a one meter wide roll direct from porsche.

i think thats what these pages are that jeff b has up on his website.
its spare parts addendums?

[wonkipop]

since i looked at jeff b's website documents real close for the first time and they seem to give a complete part number.

for (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif) + grins i typed in 00055157100402.

the three letters at the end are the color and type code.
the numbers up to that are the generic code for carpet by the roll as a part number.
put it all in as one combined number. carpet roll - brown - hair yarn?

i got this result.



what i got from porsche australia 35 years ago?

calling @dr914@autoatlanta.com

[JeffBowlsby]

Fascinating detail Michael, exceptionally well presented and organized. I will need to review this again and again.

The museum should be calling you to work for them in the 914 restoration dept.

[wonkipop]

Fascinating detail Michael, exceptionally well presented and organized. I will need to review this again and again.

The museum should be calling you to work for them in the 914 restoration dept.

all i have done is go through the material you have collected and assembled.
90% of the data here has been condensed by you mr. b

if the data wasn't there already assembled it would be impossible to attempt to work any of this out.

my hat is off to you.
you should run the porsche museum.

i will apply for the job as the cleaner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

-------

you can be certain i will have slipped up here somewhere.
its a first hack at it.
be interested in your comments after you cast your eye over it.

[wonkipop]

another bit of carpet history.

74 VW 412. 04/74 build date. pretty original car.

same black carpet change as the 914 got. (around the same time - a couple of months into 74) same as scirocco.
and very late karmann ghias.

[wonkipop]

here is the 74 1.8 (german spec = ROW). owned by Dr. Marchart and now held in Porsche Museum. this is a low mile original car. reportedly 20,000 odd miles.
pretty sure this is pre nov 73 build as it lacks the indentation for the charcoal canister visible in the rear trunk - all the cars whether USA market or ROW had this dent as far as my research can go after the change to the engine bay cans in about 3rd week nov 73.

the car is base spec (no chrome or vinyl on sail panel, black bumpers).
it appears to be needle loom (hair yarn) carpet unlike 74 USA all specs (pile hair yarn).