New car vs. Restored classic?, What are the possibilities? Options

[Superhawk996]

It's hard to think a 2025 mainstream vehicle will be on the road 30 years from now. Most newer models seem so....fragile if that makes sense?

Makes perfect sense. The industry is headed in a very bad direction.

Proprietary diagnostic and coding software. ECUs coded to specific VINs. CAN bus gateways that are being locked down and encrypted.

Engineers now have jump through crazy hoops to update an ECU. Engine ECU are the worst because of emissions implications. Now need to have Bosch send a VIN specific software flash and the security key to unlock the module to do the update. What used to take 15 minutes is now a multi-day fiasco to have the software made, sent to you, and then to get it into the vehicle. And this is with OEM proprietary engineering tools that have way more functionality than what the dealer will ever get.

I have a 2012 BMW x5 that was exceedingly difficult to get the proper diagnostic software for. BMW is actively suppressing right to repair.

I worked at various OEMs for 27 years. I fundamentally don’t like where it was headed and decided to leave rather than participate in what’s coming.

The general public hasn’t really woken up to what’s going to happen.

Jeff (and all you other guys) are wise to be considering what you can easily keep running for the next couple decades.

[gereed75]

I am also an older car guy. Just picked up a low mileage (42000) 2006 BMW M5.in incredible pampered condition. It is a fabulous car with a bad reputation for maintenance issues and was bought for peanuts. There is a robust support community of Indy parts and repair specialists who know what the issues are and how to fix them.

I know that is not in your wheelhouse, but I am also familiar with 90’s Toyotas. Have worked on my son’s forerunners. Very impressed with build quality, longevity, engineering and relative simplicity. Also supported by a robust community of new and used parts suppliers.

To me, one of the keys to ownership of cars in this genre is knowing their weak points and knowing they can be addressed. This type of knowledge is more prevalent in special interest cars that have a dedicated following, like 3 series BMW’s, Toyota trucks, some Hondas etc

I have also had good luck with early 2000 Chevrolet Tahoe/suburban trucks. Very utilitarian and you can walk into any parts store and purchase any wear item part for cheap. And that era LS motor was highly developed reliable.

One suggestion is to talk to dealer service managers for older cars you may be considering, they know what lasts and what doesn’t and what to avoid.

[Cfletch]

I daily a 1982 W123 Wagon, its super easy to work on if needed and the parts are actually very reasonable in my mind. There are plenty of 3rd party Mercedes shops near me that know these cars extremely well since they made so many of them and are still on the road today. I have seen some really nice restored examples of them and while the price for them at times can seem high, these particular ones are under 100k miles for a car that is historically known to go well into the 100's of thousands of miles.

[brant]

This thread got me to thinking about my junk

10 air cooled bikes/cars here

Oldest is 1969
Newest is 1982

[Root_Werks]

This thread got me to thinking about my junk

10 air cooled bikes/cars here

Oldest is 1969
Newest is 1982

This thread hits home for me as wife and I literally went through this discussion a few months ago. Now our newest vehicle is a 1996, oldest is a 1966. Doubt we'll ever go newer than mid-90's again.

[930cabman]

This thread got me to thinking about my junk

10 air cooled bikes/cars here

Oldest is 1969
Newest is 1982

How many are running?

[brant]

All but one
The 71’ bmw R75 has its motor in Austin getting rebuilt due to failed rod bearings

[Root_Werks]

This thread got me to thinking about my junk

10 air cooled bikes/cars here

Oldest is 1969
Newest is 1982

How many are running?

Five cars total for us. 10 would be a bit much for me. All run and drive, 100% insured etc. Challenge is rotating through them to keep them going.

[chmillman]

My 'daily driver' is a 2006 Honda FRV - never sold in the US. Only made them from 2005-2009. 6-seater, 3+3. Great car, this is my second one. First one was gasoline, bought new went for 200K miles (300K km) before I sold it. Bought a second one used, this time a turbodiesel, it now has around 150K miles (250K km). Almost no electronics, not even a backup camera or beeper. The turbodiesel is really torquey for those mountain road climbs but also very comfortable for long-distance travel. Huge amount of interior space for a small car. Handles great in the snow.

Mechanically it would probably go for another 250K km. Unfortunately, although these things were really well designed, over nearly 20 years with salt on the roads in winter it has started to rust in places that are hard to fix. Probably won't pass the next inspection in about 2 years. At that point decisions will need to be made.

[wonkipop]

one word - toyota.
one decade - 90s.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

98’ Camry. Terribly boring appliance. But high hundreds of thousands (millions?) were made which largely solves the parts availability concerns. These cars redefined the meaning of reliability. Stealth invisibility cloaking - cops cannot see this car. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

Drove it 5000+ miles cross country earlier this year.

Actually took that vehicle over a 2012 BMW X5 simply because anyone can fix the Toyota. Not so much for overly complicated German machinery.

I’ve always loved the 2009(ish) Acura TL with SH-AWD which is their name for torque vectoring. Amazing handling (for a pig of a sedan). Comfortable. Reliable. Parts aren’t as readily available as the 90s Toyotas. Not as easy to work on as a 90s Toyota Camry. Would be a strong 2nd choice for me.

2012 - 2014 is about as new as I would ever consider. Vehicle complexity went way up and overall reliability starts to diminish pretty quickly after that era. Transmissions with too many gears and fragility. Too much active safety (ADAS) crap started infiltrating the industry. Move away from V6’s towards the now ubiquitous 2.0L turbocharged four cylinder that is too highly stressed. On and on. . .

its like that here superhawke,
anyone can fix your toyota. esp the camry.
even in the middle of the outback a thousand miles from sydney or melbourne.
the parts might even be on the shelf.
and if not they can have them on the next truck through.
you never get stranded in one.

they are also invisible to the highway patrol here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)
i think they just look at their radar read out and think its playing up and go back to their donut.

[bkrantz]

I don't know.

I think our biases are showing, plus some rose colored glasses about the good old days.

Do you really think any car from the 70s or 80s, or even 90s, even when brand new, works as well and runs as comfortably as even the cheapest 2025 car? I have owned (and worked on) a long series of cars and trucks like most of you guys. And in most practical and comfortable measures my 2023 F150 blows them all away.

I am not talking about feeling special or fun to drive--most of my legacy cars had tons of that, including my current rebuilt (and updated) 914. But I can jump from that to my 2017 911 and it is clear what 50 years of engineering development means.

As for longevity, we will see. Again our memories might be selective, but I do recall lots of planned (and unplanned) car maintenance, trouble-shooting,and repairs.

[DennisV]

In another post it was said. ‘Wife bought a new Bronco in 2022. We sold it a few months ago and bought a 1972 Bronco to replace it.’

Been pondering the same dilemma. Not talking about sports cars in this thread.

Which specific vehicles would you consider as good candidates for a family car be it a sedan, SUV or minivan? Both domestic and imports, low mileage, well cared for. Condition is more important than collectibility. Probably A/C is a must but could be retrofitted. Want to focus on vehicles that would be reliable as daily drivers.

I am thinking of 60s-70s Chevys, Fords, 2000s Hondas and Toyotas. 1975 and earlier would be beneficial to those of us in CA. Valued at something less than $50K. What are your ideas?

This is a super interesting thread.

Like @Jack_Standz we have owned a Cayenne (2014) for several years. It is a very versatile, comfortable, and enjoyable to drive. It continues to be reliable enough for every day and on long trips without worry.

Part of the analysis needs to be how much you're willing to spend on maintenance and / or are you expecting to be able to do maintenance yourself.

In Northern California at an independent repair shop the intermediate maintenance on my 2014 911 runs about $650. No repairs needed.

I enjoy wrenching, but am very reluctant to work on late 90s and new cars. Once computer-dependent diagnostics came onto the scene with ODB-II and CAN bus I gave up doing much. Though I did do a factory trailer hitch install on our Cayenne. I saw too many times on my 1997 Boxster where a competent independent shop with a Porsche diagnostic scanner still had to rely on their dealer contacts to help decipher codes and get to root cause on issues.

[930cabman]

My DD has been an F150 for a few decades, I purchase new and get in the 150k range and get another new one. Works well for me being in construction. Value and pleasure are the key words here from my perspective.

Several sporting machines round out the fleet ranging from a 930 to an Alfa Spider to an original Power Wagon

[wonkipop]

I don't know.

I think our biases are showing, plus some rose colored glasses about the good old days.

Do you really think any car from the 70s or 80s, or even 90s, even when brand new, works as well and runs as comfortably as even the cheapest 2025 car? I have owned (and worked on) a long series of cars and trucks like most of you guys. And in most practical and comfortable measures my 2023 F150 blows them all away.

I am not talking about feeling special or fun to drive--most of my legacy cars had tons of that, including my current rebuilt (and updated) 914. But I can jump from that to my 2017 911 and it is clear what 50 years of engineering development means.

As for longevity, we will see. Again our memories might be selective, but I do recall lots of planned (and unplanned) car maintenance, trouble-shooting,and repairs.

completely disagree.

again one word.
single link flimsy timing chains. (ok five words). thats a 21st century thing.
that is the world going backwards.
and proves its possible for technology to be degenerate?
i've done the heads on a citroen V6 from the 90s. double link timing chains. still good at 400Kkm. even if the head gaskets had finally given the finger and gone fcuk off.
and i have just helped in here on a less than 10 year old BMW hatchback heap of shite that shredded its timing chain at less than 100K. single link. would not even quailfy as a chain on a pushbike.
a joke. and parked on the arse end of the engine to boot - just to give you the shits that bit more to fix it all. VW are not much better. if you look at the timing chain for more than 5 seconds with a serious stare its going to shatter and then say you were being mysoginist or whatever and blame you for its existence.

i might sound like an old whining conservative. but i am not.
we live in the degenerate phase of the motor vehicle?

i dont have to wait to see about longevity.
i am already witnessing 90s camrys and other 90s toyotas outliving BMWs, audis, VWs etc less than 10 years old. and the camrys were abused far more and treated with utter contempt, but have kept going despite the indifference. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

i believe peak automobile was around about somewhere between 1995 and 2005.
no later.
and what comes after is just .............whatever it takes because its already over.
this is some kind of static period driven not by innovation and progress into a future but rather a period of coping.........in between.........while waiting for whats next, which still has not really arrived. and instead going nanna on safety, safety and safety.
and just some more safety to be safe. resulting in..........the unsafe at any speed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
like in your own driveway backing out at 5 mph.

interesting times.

[Front yard mechanic]

I have a simple method at least one car from every decade starting in the 1950s

[mepstein]

I'll drive most anything. My wife won't. She wants a newer comfortable car that won't leave her stranded or require more than minimal maintenance. I can't argue with that.

[Superhawk996]

I don't know.

I think our biases are showing, plus some rose colored glasses about the good old days.

Do you really think any car from the 70s or 80s, or even 90s, even when brand new, works as well and runs as comfortably as even the cheapest 2025 car?

70s and 80s have their drawbacks that is true.

The 90s is a whole other ballgame. I’ve spent a career analyzing JD Power, Consumer Reports, AMS, and warranty data. There have been no significant gains in reliability vs the 90s. In fact, the data shows the opposite. Reliability is decreasing as more electronics, more complexity, and more software is added.

The issue of comfort is highly subjective. If you define comfort as having features like touch screens, Apple CarPlay, WiFi, and heated & cooled seats - sure you’re not going to find that in 90’s or even early 00’s vehicles.

[Superhawk996]

I'll drive most anything. My wife won't. She wants a newer comfortable car that won't leave her stranded or require more than minimal maintenance. I can't argue with that.

A quick survey of the shoulders of freeways and roads shows that a new car is not a guarantee of not being stranded. Ever notice how so many of the OEMs offer Roadside Assistance? Just something to consider.

All cars become used cars the moment you drive it off the dealership lot.

All modern cars are dependent on the crank position sensor to run. If it fails - and they do - without warning; you’re walking. There is no built in redundancy. This is but one example of things that will put a new car on the flatbed.

Having said that, I completely understand the happy wife - happy life phenomenon. Mine won’t drive a manual. Thus the Camry and the X5 with their respective slush boxes.

[Superhawk996]

I enjoy wrenching, but am very reluctant to work on late 90s and new cars. Once computer-dependent diagnostics came onto the scene with ODB-II and CAN bus I gave up doing much.

Why? OBDII makes things easier. In the majority of cases the codes point you to what the problem is. Swap a sensor, and you’re back in business.

Sure there are weird situations that require a brain to get to root cause but those are usually the exception rather than the rule. Unfortunately this has lead to many “technicians” becoming nothing more than glorified parts swappers.

Having a good scan tool that is compatible with the OEM specific codes is key. For example on the BMW X5 my generic scan tool can’t reset or give much insight on some of BMWs specific / unique codes.

For example: had a fault for transfer case oil abrasion (i.e. oil worn out). My generic scan tool can’t reset it. Once I got an appropriate version of BMWs ISTA diagnostics working (a whole fiasco unto itself!!) - I was able to change the oil, reset the adaptions, and clear the code - problem solved.

[rjames]

In my family I've seen Toyotas and Hondas run forver with only std maintenance. I had two Toyota trucks that made it to 300k before I sold them. My mom still has her '98 4Runner and an '85 Honda Prelude SI. Both are in amazing condition, even the interiors, despite being daily drivers since new.
And for the past 4 years my newphew has been driving the Honda Accord that my grandmother bought new in the early 90s and put a fair number of miles on.

Looking for a car for my son now. Looking mostly at Hondas from the 2000s. As long as it has airbags.

My wife bought her first ever new car last year. So much tech to go wrong.