Very original 6 on BAT, Quite the example Options

[davep]

This car was specced as C13 for California & New York even though it was delivered in Germany. It certainly is possible the charcoal canister and vapor lines are C13 items. The radio and antenna had to be dealer items. Fog lights may have been dealer or later; I would assume if it was dealer then it would have had the switch. I wonder if it had German driving lights, then replaced by USA fogs. Bilstein also not factory supplied.
Very nice car though!

[wonkipop]

I think the power antenna and Becker radio are not original installs.
The charcoal canister and vapor lines are California items.
I've had two California delivery cars, both had that equipment, the other sixes I've
had did not.
The car sets a standard for 'as delivered'

i don't think the charcoal lines are california only items.
and i emphasis i think this - rather than know it for sure.

reason i say this stems from the L jet research i did - and knowing more than is healthy about the clean air act and how it worked. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) it was a silly thing i did researching the L jets. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)
the clean air act was presidential legislation. its sometimes called the Nixon clean air act. and it kicked in on jan 01 1970. USA legislation is kind of not disimmilar to aus legislation - mostly kicks in on jan 01 of every calendar year.
the evap emissions system was a USEPA thing tied to the clean air act rather than a california only item even though historically all the stuff connected to vehicle emissions standards does run one year in front in california of the rest of the USA (but there was another reason for that tied to staging standards that the manufacturers argued for, california agreed with and the USEPA went along with). however the evap system stuff was a universal USA wide bit of vehicle standards via the USEPA.
i did find that out in my L jet research.

so....its highly possible that 914s (possibly both 6s and maybe 4's) did not get the evap system if they were manufactured before jan 01 1970.
be interesting to find out for sure. do you know what the manufacture dates were on those california sixes versus the others @rgalla9146 ?

not out to dispute you mate or disagree, just curious as to how it might have worked.

it is also possible that VW simply complied with the 4s from the get go in anticipation but porsche since it was installing the engines held off for as long as they could on install of the evap system. it definitely was required USA wide after jan 01 1970.

its the same funny anomaly between legislation and model years that means the 1976 914s got their certification as 1975 standards both in california and rest of USA. they were all built before jan 01 1976 which meant that though classed as 76 model years they only had to comply with the standards of 1975. that was how the USEPA and CARB resolved the difference between model years and calendar years as the emissions standards applied to the calendar year - technically speaking under law. a special regulation was written that said if a model year crossed the jan 01 dateline that meant all vehicles made under the model year had to conform to standards for the calendar year, but not if they ceased manufacture before the beginning of the calendar year applying to the model year. i believe this was done because in 1970 the loop hole was exploited by some manufacturers.

-------

and yes its a mighty fine and highly original 6.
esp those 14 inch fuchs. which were as i understand it meant to have higher profile tyres for comfort?

[rgalla9146]

I've owned two California delivery cars (1467, 2567) both had canisters and evap
plumbing .
Six other cars I've owned or rebuilt had none and all were long time east coast cars.
Not scientific. Just my observations.

[DennisV]

so....its highly possible that 914s (possibly both 6s and maybe 4's) did not get the evap system if they were manufactured before jan 01 1970.
be interesting to find out for sure.

FWIW - Our car's build date was 02 / 70 per the sticker in the door. The build sheet obtained from David Pateman shows it was delivered to Northfield, IL.

Sorry to derail the thread on this exceptional car with charcoal canister details.

[campbellcj]

This one really tugs at me as I'd love to have a super clean and streetable -6 someday, plus I love the color. I actually even brought it up with the boss but mostly in jest as another car is the last thing we need right now...

[Cfletch]

My build date 12.69 car was sold in vegas new and brought to socal- by the time I got the car there was a carbon canister and it was all hooked up. I believe it to have been originally on the car from new.

[wonkipop]

@rgalla9146 & @Cfletch thanks for those vin #s - point of sale for carbon cannister cars. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

@DennisV - did your 02/70 IL car have a cannister? you left that bit out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[wonkipop]

@rgalla9146

i checked up what i had on file.
mostly what i sniffed around for a few years back was 914/4s and their cannisters researching the L Jets. long story short then was i was digging into the plumbing of the cans to prove that the L jets did get the plumbing reversed compared to early cars.
but thats a different story.

don't have much on 6s and a lot of examples don't tell you much as they have nearly all been extensively restored.

2 i trust.

05/70 vin 2079. sold new in medford oregon. matching numbers car - original engine and transmission. very original car. had the can.

03/70 vin 0907. original condition "rusty wreck". but intact. sold new by al holbert porsche in warrington penn. original owner grand daughter of IBM CEO. had the can.
all rusty and ruined on an equally ruined fuel tank.

but i have come across one very early 4 thats built in 69 that looks like it could have not originally had a can and was a USA delivered car.

so.....? hard to know. but i don't think can or no can was a calif v rest of USA thing.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[rgalla9146]

Cars with charcoal cans and vapor plumbing have pairs of holes along the driver
side rockers and into the front and rear inner fenders.
Easy to see.
Gas tanks can have or not have features to attach the charcoal can.
My long time 6 (1095 4/1970 build ) Orangeburg, NY POE no charcoal, no
plumbing, no attachments on gas tank.

[wonkipop]

Cars with charcoal cans and vapor plumbing have pairs of holes along the driver
side rockers and into the front and rear inner fenders.
Easy to see.
Gas tanks can have or not have features to attach the charcoal can.
My long time 6 (1095 4/1970 build ) Orangeburg, NY POE no charcoal, no
plumbing, no attachments on gas tank.

could be like some 74 L jets we found.
they were california emissions spec but had been sold new in 49 states.
sold very late after model year had finished.
probably out of stocks still held unsold distributor wanted to get off the books before the 75s or even after the 75s hit the showroom.

since the 6s didn't exactly walk off the floor they could well have been disposing 6s wherever they could move them - cal spec or 49 states. just move them around the country to any customer who wanted one?

i've got a few other 6s on file without the can but with the holes down low in the front drivers guard as you say. all restored cars. so could have had cans but who knows.

definitely all the 70 4s i have on file have the can whether calif or 49 states.
at least after 69 builds. but thats not to say that porsche completed cars were in any way consistent with the vw 4 builds. i have some CARB documentation and porsche handled the 6 certifications in california while VWofNA handled the 4 certification which tends to indicate independence in terms of certification and compliance.

[DennisV]

@DennisV - did your 02/70 IL car have a cannister? you left that bit out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Sorry. I mentioned it in a post #11 on the previous page. Our car is a 1970. It does not have a charcoal canister.

[DennisV]

I dunno if I agree with that DD, as the options list includes 12 factory radios for both /4s and /6s. M440 is the antenna and speakers only. Factory installed. Now it could be that USA dealers specified the cars out without a radio looking at a profit margin and as they could install a USA-market radio as a dealer install item. And I recall seeing a few COAs with a factory radios listed. I think that’s what happened.

Our Certificate of Authenticity from Porsche lists:
Optional Equipment
US Equipment
Blaupunkt Radio "Frankfurt"

[fixer34]

@DennisV - did your 02/70 IL car have a cannister? you left that bit out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Sorry. I mentioned it in a post #11 on the previous page. Our car is a 1970. It does not have a charcoal canister.

Chiming in on the charcoal canister. Mar '70 build. 0826. Does not and did not have canister/vapor lines/holes.
CoA shows as a US car, but mine seems to be one of the 'ghosts' that does not have any import or dealer info.

[rudedude]

My march ‘70 #729 has the lines and charcoal cannister. I can’t comment right now on delivery info on the coa as I am away.

[Cairo94507]

My '71 with a May '71 production has a charcoal canister and lines.

[gandalf_025]

My car, # 619.. Sold new in Massachusetts
Built 2/70..
I bought it in 4/1973 from the original dealership
after it was traded in for a 911.. So I'm the second owner
and it never had a canister..

[wonkipop]

ok - think i found the answer to the charcoal can question for the 914/6.

previous information i had on evap system introduction related to the birth of the USEPA with the nixon government executive orders that covered the Clean Air Act of 1970. that information suggested the USEPA brought in the regulation for evap systems USA wide and did so in 1970. technically correct. but it seems from the get go the USEPA achieved this USA wide introduction by a staged emissions regulations structure. so for 1970 they deemed california to go first and rest of USA in 1971. (and they kept doing this from then on - right up to the present day).

i found this reputable source. an industry paper concerned with the introduction of EVAP systems into europe. europe was late to the game.




broadly then 49 states 914/6s were without an evap system and californian market 6s had it. given that 6s did not exactly sell like hot cakes i would take a guess that some californian market cars found their way to the other 49 states when still new if they could be sold there. (given stories of some 70 build cars sitting around still not sold as late as 1972).

there was nothing to stop a californian car being sold in the 49 states. with an evap system it exceeded 1970 USA standards. however a 49 states car would not have been able to be sold new in california.

second point to make is that porsche handled CARB certification for the 914/6 separately from VW of North America who handled it for the 914/4s.

all the documented examples of 4s i have on file including one with a build date of 12/69 have the carbon cannister even when sold in the 49 states. i think VW chose to simply fit all the cars with the carbon cannister system and for all its engines in the 914/4s to comply with CARB tailpipe emissions. with D jet this was entirely possible.
its not until 1973 that the 4s begin to diverge into califoria certified and 49 state certified.
this would also have made it very easy to move stock around the country to where it wa required if they had a universal car that did not distinguish california. probably particularly handy when the model was first introduced and stocks would have been limited.

i can't say for sure but i think that porsche took a different line with the 6s and only put the evap system on for where it was required. in both the 911 and the 914/6.

so the view that the californian cars got evap and the rest did not is correct.
but it appears only to apply to the 6s.

[johnhora]

wonkipop

Great info you found...

This will add a little to that conclusion:
My 914-6 9140432060 is a 5/70 production date that was delivered in Louisville KY and is 22 cars down the line after the one for sale and mine doesn't have any evaporation system equipment or modifications and the fuel tank does not have the charcoal canister brackets. Apparently Porsche had a pretty good idea of where the 6's were going and didn't put anything on them not required or on the build sheet.

This yellow 914-6 will be a very nice car for someone.

[wonkipop]

another one for you 914/6 original condition geeks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

vents in door jambs. vent or no vent.

this current BAT example being discussed here is pretty damn original you would think.



vin 2038. no plastic vent screen.



couple of months back - GT for sale. very original. original paint. unrestored it was said.



vin 1571. plastic vent screens (like later cars).



a couple of years back. another very original six for sale. but it had been repainted.



vin 2050. plastic vent screens.


personally i would go with 2038, the current car under discussion as its so unmolested.
and maybe other cars over last 1/2 century had some well meaning owner add them.
though its also just as possible i guess that well meaning owners removed them --->
known moisture trap in foam filter causing rust?

in the back of my mind was a question, did the 6s get the screens and the 4 did not early on in the first few years of production? a mere thought and question provoked by what i was coming across.

one of those obscure details i found looking into very early 4s regarding the central dashboard vent and happened to notice the 6 business with door vents - completely unrelated. what i picked up on with the 4s is that the dashboard central vent was not there on some very very early 4s.

[wonkipop]

wonkipop

Great info you found...

This will add a little to that conclusion:
My 914-6 9140432060 is a 5/70 production date that was delivered in Louisville KY and is 22 cars down the line after the one for sale and mine doesn't have any evaporation system equipment or modifications and the fuel tank does not have the charcoal canister brackets. Apparently Porsche had a pretty good idea of where the 6's were going and didn't put anything on them not required or on the build sheet.

This yellow 914-6 will be a very nice car for someone.

yes - exactly. i would have thought a fair proportion of the 6s would have been customer ordered as you say. and porsche knew where they were being delivered to. built to exact regulation requirements and no more when it came to emissions gear. some of course would have been general showroom stock but a lot would not have been.

the 4s were likely a very different story. a lot more general spec stuff as the expectation would have been mass sales. proportion of showroom stock to personal customer orders would have been significantly different you would think. hence logic of a more universal all states inclusive of california conformity for 4s?

not entirely unrelated is the actual layout of those carbon cannisters in the 914s.
both the 6s and the 4s. which is something we got deep into with the 1.8 L jet research, completely inadvertently. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) the hook up of the hoses to the cannisters is entirely a porsche design - same as used in the 911s of the time. the hose from the fan and the hose to the carbs was inverted when compared to the VW design layout used on every VW except the 914/4. but the same components were used by both companies.
same cannister that is. turns out the porsche layout is tuned for carbs and the vapor load that comes out of carbi bowls on hot shutdown. thats the problem porsche had with its carb cars. for VW this problem did not exist, they had EFI, no hot shutdown vapor load at the engine inlet side of things. the vapor load was nearly entirely from the fuel tank. the VW design was tuned for maximum life of the cannister, the porsche design was to cope with the carbs and make it through the EPA test. porsche would have seen the cannister as a service item with much shorter replacement times. conveniently located in front trunk for quick replacement. VW hid these cannisters in all sorts of less convenient locations on all their other regular models.

in 1974 the 914 finally changed to the VW layout with the engine bay cannisters fitted to the 1974 L jets. from then on all the 914 models used the revised VW standard layout.

it was one of those funny little things where the early 914/4s could have had the VW layout with a different hose hook up to the 6s but instead a standard porsche layout was used for all the cars.

interestingly porsche themselves switched to the VW layout on the 911s in 74 model year as well. why? because they went to fuel injection and dropped carbs entirely for the USA market by that point. so they too could finally tune the cans for long life rather than just coping with the EPA test for certification.

however in neither case did the cans achieve the 50,000 mile warranty provision the EPA required. all were noted as 30,000 mile changeover replacement items. little known and forgotten now but if your car had done more than 30,000 miles but less than 50,000 miles and was less than 5 years old the can was a free of charge warranty part replacement. regulations required the manufacturer to do that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)