Opinions and advice, My 914-6 resto Options

[flyer86d]

you are credited with this one:

So over this summer, I refreshed the suspension and brakes that are going on the -6. I’ve had a set of front suspension with delrin bushings, 21mm torsion bars, big aluminum calipers and -6 rear trailing arms with delrin bushings. It’s all repainted and ready to go in. A mild heart attack at the end of September and a triple bypass 6 days later postponed a bunch of work. I’m getting back to it cleaning parts for the winter project of building a motor.

I’m looking for motor advice. I want a small displacement screamer. We don’t have freeways on the Maine coast and it’s not going to be a daily driver just a toy that I will never sell. So, I am building this on a 914-6 case, not the original which I have, counter weighted crank with matching rods, 69S heads, 81 mm 906 pistons and cylinders with 40mm Webers. Which cams? I am looking for a willing motor with explosive ( for a small motor) revs from 4500rpm up to 7500. What does the group say? Our old track 911sc was a 3.2 with ge80 cams which did that but I don’t want that kind of power for a street car. What does the group say? 911s, mod S, 906, Dc60?

[mb911]

I have a 2.4 with S pistons, ported heads, solex cams and you requirements is what my engine provides

[rgalla9146]

Charlie
I hear E cams get nearly the same perf as S but do it more smoothly
I wish I could say from personal experience.
Happy New Year !
Rory
PS ask Peter ?

[mepstein]

Definitely not 906 cams, even though I have three sets to sell, each slightly different. We built a 906 engine last summer for a real 906. Got 285 hp on Peter Dawe very conservative dyno. Sounds wonderful, right? But it would be terrible for a street car. I’ve spent a lot of time in Maine and New England. There’s some great winding roads with plenty of elevation changes. Fun roads for sure. But a 906 engine, no power until it’s on cam at 5k+. So absolutely miserable until you get into it. Unless you are constantly driving traffic free roads without any stop signs or lights, you want something more drivable. Same with suspension. My thought is that 21mm front bar, unless the shocks are really soft are going to be a rough ride. But that’s an easy change compared to cams. Cams all have their own personality but they are still dependent on other choices. Piston design, compression ratio and induction all play a big part. My suggestion is to talk to the place that you are buying your cams and get their take on it. Dougherty, webcam, etc all know their cams and can help you pick the best one for your combo and driving style.

[SirAndy]

Definitely not 906 cams, even though I have three sets to sell, each slightly different. We built a 906 engine last summer for a real 906. Got 285 hp on Peter Dawe very conservative dyno. Sounds wonderful, right? But it would be terrible for a street car. I’ve spent a lot of time in Maine and New England. There’s some great winding roads with plenty of elevation changes. Fun roads for sure. But a 906 engine, no power until it’s on cam at 5k+. So absolutely miserable until you get into it. Unless you are constantly driving traffic free roads without any stop signs or lights, you want something more drivable. Same with suspension. My thought is that 21mm front bar, unless the shocks are really soft are going to be a rough ride. But that’s an easy change compared to cams. Cams all have their own personality but they are still dependent on other choices. Piston design, compression ratio and induction all play a big part. My suggestion is to talk to the place that you are buying your cams and get their take on it. Dougherty, webcam, etc all know their cams and can help you pick the best one for your combo and driving style.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

For a (mostly) street car, you want as much low end torque as you can get.

So basically the exact opposite of a "small displacement screamer".
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

[rgalla9146]

Dbl

[DennisV]

I hear E cams get nearly the same perf as S but do it more smoothly

When I had the cams for our mostly stock 914-6 engine done by Dema Elgin he also recommended E grind. This is for spirited street driving. It has slightly higher valve lift than the standard 911T cam. If you go this route don't forget to adjust your cam timing to match.


I haven't put this in the car yet, nor do I have another car to compare against. I can only pass along his advice and specs. FWIW.

[mepstein]

Definitely not 906 cams, even though I have three sets to sell, each slightly different. We built a 906 engine last summer for a real 906. Got 285 hp on Peter Dawe very conservative dyno. Sounds wonderful, right? But it would be terrible for a street car. I’ve spent a lot of time in Maine and New England. There’s some great winding roads with plenty of elevation changes. Fun roads for sure. But a 906 engine, no power until it’s on cam at 5k+. So absolutely miserable until you get into it. Unless you are constantly driving traffic free roads without any stop signs or lights, you want something more drivable. Same with suspension. My thought is that 21mm front bar, unless the shocks are really soft are going to be a rough ride. But that’s an easy change compared to cams. Cams all have their own personality but they are still dependent on other choices. Piston design, compression ratio and induction all play a big part. My suggestion is to talk to the place that you are buying your cams and get their take on it. Dougherty, webcam, etc all know their cams and can help you pick the best one for your combo and driving style.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

For a (mostly) street car, you want as much low end torque as you can get.

So basically the exact opposite of a "small displacement screamer".
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

You can definitely build a small displacement screamer but one designed for the street is built different than one for the track. A good cam company is a great resource for figuring out the combo.

[914forme]

I prefer to have the best suspension I can have on any car. You can do a lot with a smaller engine, and very good handling car.
To that I end up with more questions.

Rear spring size?

Swaybar(s)?

Shocks?

[JmuRiz]

If you want a mix of E and S, the solex or DC30 is a good choice on a 2.4 (from what I hear). Ben mb911 is right, it should satisfy your needs.

I started with a 2.7 case so mine will be a different animal, if I can ever afford to have it completed.

[flyer86d]

Definitely not 906 cams, even though I have three sets to sell, each slightly different. We built a 906 engine last summer for a real 906. Got 285 hp on Peter Dawe very conservative dyno. Sounds wonderful, right? But it would be terrible for a street car. I’ve spent a lot of time in Maine and New England. There’s some great winding roads with plenty of elevation changes. Fun roads for sure. But a 906 engine, no power until it’s on cam at 5k+. So absolutely miserable until you get into it. Unless you are constantly driving traffic free roads without any stop signs or lights, you want something more drivable. Same with suspension. My thought is that 21mm front bar, unless the shocks are really soft are going to be a rough ride. But that’s an easy change compared to cams. Cams all have their own personality but they are still dependent on other choices. Piston design, compression ratio and induction all play a big part. My suggestion is to talk to the place that you are buying your cams and get their take on it. Dougherty, webcam, etc all know their cams and can help you pick the best one for your combo and driving style.

Mark,

I drove the car that the suspension came off of and it actually worked well. It was on a hot rod 2.0 that my sister and brother in law owned. I had just refreshed the engine and we went to Lime Rock. This is 1982 I think. She backed it into the tire wall on the inside of West Bend, launched off of it and landed under the bridge on her roof….

Charlie

[flyer86d]

I prefer to have the best suspension I can have on any car. You can do a lot with a smaller engine, and very good handling car.
To that I end up with more questions.

Rear spring size?

Swaybar(s)?

Shocks?

140# rear springs, 19mm H&H front, stock rear swaybar, Bilsteins.

Charlie

[sixaddict]

You have already gotten some very good and knowledgeable input……I am going to add mine because I was looking for similar end result. Your 4500 rpm up is interesting but not very good for the street…..as Mark said. I went with 69S Mahles ( old school mfg) .
Had head work done on original six heads ( now have 46/40 valves). If I had to do it over I may change to 2.2 heads ( I think) as the valve angle is better than the 2 liter heads and improves combustion pattern. This came from Post build research.
I went with Dougherty DC 30 ( I believe those are referred to as modified solex or close)
S cams too high rpm curve, E runs out of gas too soon……based on my info.
Not sure this is necessary but went with an early Bosch distributor. Engine is done but car is far behind so can’t provide actual feedback.
I’m going with stock bushings and stock front bar with 100 lb rear ….90 is stock. The 100s are shorter so drops ride height a bit.
125 or more too harsh for my goals.
Sounds like fun car.

[flyer86d]

Thank you all for your comments and advice. Our old 73 911T I upgraded to 2.4S P&C, 911E cams, injection pump and stacks with stock ports. With the twin pipe muffler, it would pull hard to 7300. With the stock single pipe, 6600 and it fell on its face. Very strong engine though. My present 68 911 has a 2.7 with RS piston and cylinders, 911E cams and Weber. I’m still messing with jets so I don’t have a good opinion yet but it seems real tractable.

I’m looking for something more revvy with the low end of an E cam with a noticeable step up at 4500. I figured that I would try the brain trust before I put my money down on cams. Our old track SC with the GE-80 cammed 3.2 short stroke is the feel I am looking for but with two thirds of the horsepower.

Charlie

[mlindner]

Well, that's what I was looking for and got it. A 2.2 with DC30 mod soles cams, 40 PMOs. Also some short gears. I've had seven Porsche's from 993 Carrera S, Cayan S, 928 and on.I have the most fun in my 914-6 GT Tribute, have fun with your build. Mark

[gereed75]

In my experience I suggest that the DC30 mod solex might be what you are looking for.

Good torque, good smooth throttle response with a real surge starting at 4500 with a substantial kick all the way to 7400. Running stock six headers with Ben’s twin tip sport muffler.

Talk to Dougherty, he knows these cam engine combos intrinsically and can give you the characteristics you want if you can give him the spec and describe what you want.

Love the mod solex.

And your post reminded of why I couldn’t get comfy at Lime Rock!

[flyer86d]

Many thanks! I’ll call Dr cams as it seems that is what I am looking for! I figured that someone had the same wants and desires that I have. To me it’s better to have a willing motor pushed hard than a big motor loafing along. This is not a daily driver but a toy.

Charlie

[brant]

I like it

Always wonder why more people don’t build small bore motors.

This is what a gt’s came with…. Factory didn’t build 3.0 motors in 1970

Much more accurate for a great clone

I have a 81mm set of P/C’s on my racecar with an 8000 redline
And love it

[914forme]

I like the suspension bits, except the front TBs. But you can go up to 175s. With. the Bilstein's you can get a rear coil over sleeve kit. YThis will allow you to run common 2.5 inch springs, you can then balance the car handling via changing spring rates. ou can also send them to Bilstein to have them revalved to match your springs. If you go on that journey do the sleeves before you ship them out. They will have to cut a small part off the top to rebuild the shocks.

BTW, I love a short stroke engine.

The biggest change I made to my 914 was adding a LSD to the car. I had both a ZF unit, and a Quaife, both. have their place and uses. The ZF went in due to.being. an option. So legal swap in my class. The Quaife was great option as the car became more of a street car. Rrvrn with mild power levels I was shocked at the difference this made.

[smg914]

Hey Charlie
I know you’re looking at going much bigger but if you decide to go smaller but bigger, I have in their original never opened boxes that I’m probably going to sell….
As set of Made in Germany Mahle 2.2 liter 911T pistons and cylinders