Fred's 2374 -> 2258 Engine Build Thread Options

[930cabman]

I like Plasti Gage, it has worked well for me in the past and please trust I am far from an "engine builder", I have completed many air/water cooled rebuilds over the past 50+ years and have learned a thing or 2, but always check and double check everything and still check again.

Having the correct gauging tools is key here and I have never used the correct tools, but would like to assume the professionals have the right stuff and fully understand how to use them.

Great build (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif)

[friethmiller]

Fred,

Where did you get these thick gaskets? They look like just what we need for some o-ringed oil pumps/projects.

These came with a 26mm maxi-pump from CB Performance. I had already ordered these "thicker" gaskets from them before I found these in the LE's engine box. They'll probably be the same. I think they're arriving tomorrow. I can let you know.

Confirmed on that thicker oil pump gasket from CB Performance. You can buy it as a separate item.

[Robroe]

Following you with great interest. I am also building a 2258 using Raby cam and Ham/Raby heads. I've disassembled a previously built but never run engine as it sat for 10 years. I just finished installing a new 30 mm pump from LN (Raby said it should work) and getting ready to install billet taco plate and sump. Then cylinders.

[friethmiller]

I like Plasti Gage...

Me too! I think about it like this. If I miss-measure my crank's main journal with my micrometer (i.e. too tight), that will translate in a inaccurate zero setting with my bore gauge, and my clearance will be off. Plastigauge might seem crude but it doesn't have this problem. So, in regards to bearing #2, I'm absolutely going to use plasticgauge as an alternate measure. I just wish I could get it to work on the other journals. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) ...and let me know if you have a trick.

I'll pull the plastigauge out tomorrow and give it a go on #2. BTW, the material on this split bearing is different from the others in the set and is starting to show perpendicular scratches from all my bore gauge measurements. This could easily "tighten" the measurement here. And I am highly suspect of the 9-3 o'clock measure here. I'll snap a few pics of the results and report back.

Thanks for you input. Much appreciated! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/first.gif)

[friethmiller]

Following you with great interest. I am also building a 2258 using Raby cam and Ham/Raby heads. I've disassembled a previously built but never run engine as it sat for 10 years. I just finished installing a new 30 mm pump from LN (Raby said it should work) and getting ready to install billet taco plate and sump. Then cylinders.

Nice! Great to hear I'm not the only one building one at the moment. Best of luck! I hope it rips!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cheer.gif)

[friethmiller]

Moving Forward

While I wait for another case from Mark to arrive, I thought it best to move on with the crank to rod clearances. I measured the rod journals at a pretty consistent 1.9694". Zeroing the bore gauge to this, I got a very consistent .0015 - .002 on each rod. In fact, every rod measured .002 at the 12 o'clock position and .0015 everywhere else. You can see that I went "full clean" on these bearings/surfaces. I'm not planning on taking these bearing back out.





With the case an unknown still, I can't install the #3 bearing and gears on the crank yet. So, instead, I gave everything a good "initial clean". Note the use of straight gears on this build. The machinist highly recommended I make this switch based on the HD double springs I'm running in my heads. The second pic shows me cleaning the cosmoline off of the cam gear.



The next three pics show the 163/86b cam being installed with the gear in the padded vice. I'm assuming that I should be using the center (non-offset) washers for this gear. I will need to verify this tonight.





Final two photos show me lapping the oil pump cover on a piece of glass+sandpaper taped to the table. Despite the weird reflection in the photo - this thing was already flat. I must have done it last time. Better safe than sorry. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)



I'm also working on several todos in the car's engine bay. For instance, I've already run a return line back to the tank and just need to pipe it up to the new fuel pressure regulator. This regulator is new and needs to be cleaned and installed, as well. I'll document some of this tomorrow. Till then.... Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[friethmiller]

Yeah, I forgot about "Cam Degreeing". Damn! It just hit me with a type 4 ... this means I will need to mock-up the entire case/components, install the jugs, do this test, and then tear it all back down again to potentially use the offset cam gear washers. Nice! This should be exciting (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Jack Standz]

Fred,

Where did you get these thick gaskets? They look like just what we need for some o-ringed oil pumps/projects.

These came with a 26mm maxi-pump from CB Performance. I had already ordered these "thicker" gaskets from them before I found these in the LE's engine box. They'll probably be the same. I think they're arriving tomorrow. I can let you know.

Confirmed on that thicker oil pump gasket from CB Performance. You can buy it as a separate item.

Thanks for checking Fred. Couldn't find it on their website, so was planning to go old skool and call them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .

BTW when you degree the cam, it might be interesting if you could share where you set it and why please. However, kinda hard to get it "right" without a dyno. Looking forward to where you end up setting it either advanced or retarded. Of course it looks like you might be trying to just make sure it's straight up.

[friethmiller]

Thanks for checking Fred. Couldn't find it on their website, so was planning to go old skool and call them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .

Here it is:


It should say:
“Thicker than stock oil pump gasket, for use when installing Type-4 Oil Pumps.” in the description.

[friethmiller]

Of course it looks like you might be trying to just make sure it's straight up.

Well, for now yes. I'm straight at 0 degrees. Depending on my measurements, I may need to advance or retard using the washers. That means my assembly of the case is without sealant till this is dialed-in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

[friethmiller]

@930cabman - Plasticgauge on the W-case. Brand new set of .50/STD bearings. Clearance on #2 bearing is confirm at .0015". Included a few pics.

Before & After Installing the crank with bearings (torque'd to 25lbs on the 6 case bolts).



Measuring the gap:

[Ninja]

Hi Fred,

Me thinks that's a great cam choice. It's pretty much what Raby developed and sold (maybe with a different LSA, not sure?).

Might want to run it a little advanced. We have two new ones (163/86b) in the boxes for upcoming projects, but was a little disappointed that we could only get them with 104 degrees lobe separation. But, understand that "custom" cams are months and months and months away. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

Webcams makes good cams, so hoping you (and we) are happy with them!

All this to say that your LN lifters may be WebCam ones.

Right! I will find out. Here are the cards from both cams. 104 lc on both.



FYI, my intake/exhaust valves are 44/38 and my exhaust is a full 1 5/8” tangerine header + muffler.

Fred,

Where did you get these thick gaskets? They look like just what we need for some o-ringed oil pumps/projects.

These came with a 26mm maxi-pump from CB Performance. I had already ordered these "thicker" gaskets from them before I found these in the LE's engine box. They'll probably be the same. I think they're arriving tomorrow. I can let you know.

Confirmed on that thicker oil pump gasket from CB Performance. You can buy it as a separate item.

Thanks for checking Fred. Couldn't find it on their website, so was planning to go old skool and call them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .

BTW when you degree the cam, it might be interesting if you could share where you set it and why please. However, kinda hard to get it "right" without a dyno. Looking forward to where you end up setting it either advanced or retarded. Of course it looks like you might be trying to just make sure it's straight up.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Jack speaks the truth!

It's super common to see cams degreed in with a bit of advance (for street use) or a bit of retard (high RPM race use).

But, it all depends on how the restrictions line up in the engine. How well the intake flows against how well the exhaust does.

The T4 is the single hardest "cam timing adjustment" engine I think I've seen yet.
Gota take the puppy completely apart to change anything!

I'm building a Toyota 3S-GTE Turbo MR2 engine with my son and I have adjustable gears. You put it together without the upper timing belt guard and you can alter cam timing in less than 5 minutes.

On that you wait till you're on the dyno before even worrying about cam timing.

I'd want LN, Raby, or Len Hoffman's take on cam timing for your set up if I could access that info.

Without a wizard's oversight, I'd put it in between 2-4 degrees advanced and run it (for street use).

You CAN degree a cam without pistons/rods/valve train, but you cannot find accurate TDC without at least one piston/rod/jug installed. You just take the cam timing reading off of a lifter.

That .050 timing measurement changes if you're taking the reading off of a lifter instead of a spring retainer. It will change depending on your rocker arm ratio.

I believe "off of the lifter" is more accurate than "off of the retainer".


Can you provide a close-up view of the main bearing bore surfaces on the line bored engine?
I'd like to see the surface machine marks.

I'm still having trouble with "how does a fresh line bore be non-concentric" as the machine itself cuts very accurate circles. They can easily be too large or too small (machinist error) but "out of round" seems impossible without a severely worn-out machine.

I use Plasti-Gauge on all of my builds as a final check. It's a verification tool after all the actual measurement are done. Yours looks great!

Plasti-Gauge shrinks with age! If it is 6 months old, it's GONE in my book.

I always buy new from someone like Summit as I'm hoping to get the newest stuff possible.

Believe what you measure OVER what Plasti-guage shows. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif)

[930cabman]

@930cabman - Plasticgauge on the W-case. Brand new set of .50/STD bearings. Clearance on #2 bearing is confirm at .0015". Included a few pics.

Before & After Installing the crank with bearings (torque'd to 25lbs on the 6 case bolts).



Measuring the gap:

Lookin great, and no, I wish there was a way to check the other main bearing journals with Plasti Gage. Rod bearing clearances a yes

Can we assume all the main bearing bores and the same size and in line?

[friethmiller]

Can you provide a close-up view of the main bearing bore surfaces on the line bored engine?
I'd like to see the surface machine marks.

I'm still having trouble with "how does a fresh line bore be non-concentric" as the machine itself cuts very accurate circles. They can easily be too large or too small (machinist error) but "out of round" seems impossible without a severely worn-out machine.

Here's a few pics of the W case saddles. Any vertical marks are from me and my dial bore gauge.





If I use a metal ruler and sit it flush against the #2 saddle, you can see light under saddle #3. Saddle #1 looks pretty good. I'm not sure this ruler is good test but it doesn't lay flat. I made sure not to use #4. Need to find a piece of aluminum bar or something.

First photo show the ruler flat across the #2 saddle, with the headlamp against #3. Second photo shows the gap. Third photo is of saddle #1, no light.





Again, I think I need a better, thicker straight edge.

[friethmiller]

Ok, I reassembled the W case again without bearings. I measured the 1-3 saddles for the 400th time - but this time in metric (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Reminder: A standard case saddle is 70.0mm and a case with 0.50mm line bore should be 70.5mm +/- .02mm.

W-Case Saddle Measurements:
Saddle #1 : 9 o'clock position is 70.55mm; 12 o'clock (parting line) is 70.55mm
Saddle #2 : 9 o'clock position is 70.53mm; 12 o'clock position is 70.54mm
Saddle #3 : 9 o'clock position is 70.53mm; 12 o'clock position is 70.50mm

I've been "over-bored" This is a worst "case" scenario! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) Inadequate bearing-crush. Not good.

Rant: Why the hell don't they make enough type 4 bearings? And how about making some +/- bearings for custom fitting an engine for the above scenario?. There's no boring past .50mm mark.

[Jack Standz]

Hi Fred,

Me thinks that's a great cam choice. It's pretty much what Raby developed and sold (maybe with a different LSA, not sure?).

Might want to run it a little advanced. We have two new ones (163/86b) in the boxes for upcoming projects, but was a little disappointed that we could only get them with 104 degrees lobe separation. But, understand that "custom" cams are months and months and months away. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

Webcams makes good cams, so hoping you (and we) are happy with them!

All this to say that your LN lifters may be WebCam ones.

Right! I will find out. Here are the cards from both cams. 104 lc on both.



FYI, my intake/exhaust valves are 44/38 and my exhaust is a full 1 5/8” tangerine header + muffler.

Fred,

Where did you get these thick gaskets? They look like just what we need for some o-ringed oil pumps/projects.

These came with a 26mm maxi-pump from CB Performance. I had already ordered these "thicker" gaskets from them before I found these in the LE's engine box. They'll probably be the same. I think they're arriving tomorrow. I can let you know.

Confirmed on that thicker oil pump gasket from CB Performance. You can buy it as a separate item.

Thanks for checking Fred. Couldn't find it on their website, so was planning to go old skool and call them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .

BTW when you degree the cam, it might be interesting if you could share where you set it and why please. However, kinda hard to get it "right" without a dyno. Looking forward to where you end up setting it either advanced or retarded. Of course it looks like you might be trying to just make sure it's straight up.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Jack speaks the truth!

It's super common to see cams degreed in with a bit of advance (for street use) or a bit of retard (high RPM race use).

But, it all depends on how the restrictions line up in the engine. How well the intake flows against how well the exhaust does.

The T4 is the single hardest "cam timing adjustment" engine I think I've seen yet.
Gota take the puppy completely apart to change anything!

I'm building a Toyota 3S-GTE Turbo MR2 engine with my son and I have adjustable gears. You put it together without the upper timing belt guard and you can alter cam timing in less than 5 minutes.

On that you wait till you're on the dyno before even worrying about cam timing.

I'd want LN, Raby, or Len Hoffman's take on cam timing for your set up if I could access that info.

Without a wizard's oversight, I'd put it in between 2-4 degrees advanced and run it (for street use).

You CAN degree a cam without pistons/rods/valve train, but you cannot find accurate TDC without at least one piston/rod/jug installed. You just take the cam timing reading off of a lifter.

That .050 timing measurement changes if you're taking the reading off of a lifter instead of a spring retainer. It will change depending on your rocker arm ratio.

I believe "off of the lifter" is more accurate than "off of the retainer".


Can you provide a close-up view of the main bearing bore surfaces on the line bored engine?
I'd like to see the surface machine marks.

I'm still having trouble with "how does a fresh line bore be non-concentric" as the machine itself cuts very accurate circles. They can easily be too large or too small (machinist error) but "out of round" seems impossible without a severely worn-out machine.

I use Plasti-Gauge on all of my builds as a final check. It's a verification tool after all the actual measurement are done. Yours looks great!

Plasti-Gauge shrinks with age! If it is 6 months old, it's GONE in my book.

I always buy new from someone like Summit as I'm hoping to get the newest stuff possible.

Believe what you measure OVER what Plasti-guage shows. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif)

Hi Rick,

Yeah, for those that are adjusting valve timing, it can be a real, PIA. Depending on your setup, you may get away with pulling the oil pump and adjusting the fasteners on the cam gear through there. That's our plan.

But not gonna run the motor on a dyno. Mockup like Fred is doing. Best guess parallels what you said about 2 to 4 degrees is probably good enough. However, gonna start with a baseline measurement of where the cam is per the cam card versus where the cam was ground when using a standard non-adjustable gear. Curious to see what we find and how it works out. Really and honestly don't know what we will find or where we will set the cam timing. At least not yet.

Getting back to the comments about Raby, LN and cam timing and LSA. The 104 Fred and we are gonna run will probably be OK. It seems that Raby and LN only make changes/fine tuning of the LSA for those running their motors at significantly different altitudes.

[friethmiller]

Fuel Regulator:

I needed to mount the new PMO fuel regulator at carburetor height in the engine bay. With the way the fuel lines are already routed, this meant installing it somewhere on the back wall of the engine bay. Unfortunately, the center position is occupied by the TR oil catch can/breather. The supplied mounting plate was good but wasn't the right size for the mounting location. So, I set out to fabricate a mount of my own. Note the diagram in the first pic. The return line output is on top then input with two outlets on the face that go to the carbs.



From the cut out that I had mocked up in the engine bay, I went out to the shed and found some scrap 16 gauge sheet metal. After cutting the shape, I then drilled the necessary holes, painted it, and then mounted the regulator.



I then mounted the entire assembly against the back wall. You may notice that I did do a little bending of the mount itself. I needed to account for the angle differences of the bolt location on the back wall. I also bent the mount below this point (horizontally) to allow the regulator to set more upright. The one problem with the mount as I found out was the interference with the hose clamps. I need smaller clamps for the 8mm hose for sure but I may remove and cut the mount a bit to alleviate the problem. Not bad though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



Final photos show the routing of the lines and the lower firewall. With the added return line and my A/C wire routing + new bus bar, things sure have gotten congested in this area. I still need to clean up the hoses and wire with a few good zip-ties. Again, not too bad.