Fred's 2374 -> 2258 Engine Build Thread Options

[friethmiller]

perhaps a call to Ollies is in order

Ollies in AZ? Just talked with them. They don't do VW line-bores. Any other recommendations? Anyone have a good shop that does Type 4 line bores?

I've emailed and left messages at Headflow Masters and Brother's Machine both in CA. No response [yet]. Just talked with George at LN Engineering. He said they are 2-3 months out (at best) on providing that service.

Don't we have some East Coast options? I'm about done with CA (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[930cabman]

Wish I knew of a reputable VW/Porsche engine machine shop

several years ago I had my local machinist turn a "case gauge" simply a straight shaft with a thou or so undersize from the main bearing bores. The hope was to use this to inspect the several T4 cases I have laying around. Well life got in the way and this is still unproven. works on paper, in practice has yet to be proved

My default gage is having the assembly torqued and the "feel" of a lightly oiled crank in new bearings

[friethmiller]

I hear ya there. When I torqued the crank in my EC block last week it wasn't binding but I could tell it was just a bit firm. Not saying I've got "the touch" but I think over time I'm beginning to learn the feel. What that means as far a .001s? No clue (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) Saying sh!t like this guarantees a post from @ninja (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[930cabman]

I hear ya there. When I torqued the crank in my EC block last week it wasn't binding but I could tell it was just a bit firm. Not saying I've got "the touch" but I think over time I'm beginning to learn the feel. What that means as far a .001s? No clue (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) Saying sh!t like this guarantees a post from @ninja (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

When you did the crank "feel test" were you using the flywheel or the fan?

No binding is a good thing

[friethmiller]

I hear ya there. When I torqued the crank in my EC block last week it wasn't binding but I could tell it was just a bit firm. Not saying I've got "the touch" but I think over time I'm beginning to learn the feel. What that means as far a .001s? No clue (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) Saying sh!t like this guarantees a post from @ninja (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

When you did the crank "feel test" were you using the flywheel or the fan?

No binding is a good thing

I was turning the hub placed on the nose of the crank with one hand.

[930cabman]

I hear ya there. When I torqued the crank in my EC block last week it wasn't binding but I could tell it was just a bit firm. Not saying I've got "the touch" but I think over time I'm beginning to learn the feel. What that means as far a .001s? No clue (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) Saying sh!t like this guarantees a post from @ninja (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

When you did the crank "feel test" were you using the flywheel or the fan?

No binding is a good thing

I was turning the hub placed on the nose of the crank with one hand.

Given the information available I would give this a go

[friethmiller]

Given the information available I would give this a go

I would... but I saw the condition of the bearings coming out of this case 18 months ago (below) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) The engine had less than 5,000 miles on it. I'm erroring on the side of caution here.


UPDATE: Today the W case shipped back to EMW and the EC case went to Brother's VW Machine. Both cases will arrive in CA on Monday. Here's to getting something back that is in spec. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

[930cabman]

Given the information available I would give this a go

I would... but I saw the condition of the bearings coming out of this case 18 months ago (below) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) The engine had less than 5,000 miles on it. I'm erroring on the side of caution here.


UPDATE: Today the W case shipped back to EMW and the EC case went to Brother's VW Machine. Both cases will arrive in CA on Monday. Here's to getting something back that is in spec. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

Question for the brain trust:

Would you say these bearings suffered from ill fitting or contamination?

and how much did they suffer? was the oil pressure acceptable? engine runing ok?

[Ninja]

Ill fitting!

But I'd want to see all of the bearings in order with correct clocking to look across the entire set.

The picture at 5K looks like a "COME BACK" to me.

[friethmiller]

Note the backs of these same #2 bearings. Note: these are old pics that Rick has already seen.

[930cabman]

Once again, I am not a "real" engine builder, but if I had to guess my bet would be contamination. Bearing surface does not appear wiped out. How was the engine running prior to removal?

Hoping to see more input here

[friethmiller]

Once again, I am not a "real" engine builder, but if I had to guess my bet would be contamination. Bearing surface does not appear wiped out. How was the engine running prior to removal?

Hoping to see more input here

It ran but there were multiple issues at play here. The top end of the motor was built incorrectly. The cam’s thrust bearing surface was flaking off and one of the pushrods had mushroomed and was causing damage to the top of the lifter. The reason I pulled the engine was due to metal in the oil. So, while I think the bearing clearances weren’t good, the top end was beginning to come apart and contaminated the oil.

.

[friethmiller]

All this is in the past, though. I'm looking forward to getting the case back and starting to build the engine up correctly with a little forum assistance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[930cabman]

All this is in the past, though. I'm looking forward to getting the case back and starting to build the engine up correctly with a little forum assistance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

In the past yes, but what can we learn from this mess?

My $5.00 would go with contamination from pushrods, improper thrust, .... falling apart

Possible the case is fine

[friethmiller]

All this is in the past, though. I'm looking forward to getting the case back and starting to build the engine up correctly with a little forum assistance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

In the past yes, but what can we learn from this mess?

My $5.00 would go with contamination from pushrods, improper thrust, .... falling apart

Possible the case is fine

Understood. You're probably right. I'm sure the case is fine but I won't rush the process this time. When my case returns and checks out, I will proceed. The lesson learned here is don't trust a lot of these "so called" professionals. You must verify measurements, check clearances, and make sure everything is right. I'm not guilt free here, either. I've learned a lot of hard lessons a long the way.

Let me bring everyone up to speed on the history of this engine (it isn't pretty).

1) 2019: Engine goes to Fat/Rimco for machine work - decided to have them build the long block (during Covid).

2) 2021: Put my new engine on test stand. Break-in engine - no issues.

3) Run engine a 2nd time to verify timing adjustments. 5mins into test run, engine begins bellowing smoke bad.

4) Call Rimco. Pissed. I am told to install into car and drive it.

5) Drive car with new engine - continues to blow smoke, gets worse and then seizes.

6) Tow car back home, call Rimco. I am told that since they only built a long-block they aren't at fault here. I'm pissed, tell them what I think of them (and their mothers). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

7) Tear-down engine myself, find a metal ball of shavings in #2 main oiling hole in crank blocking oil passage. Really pissed off!

8) 2022: Decide to build it back myself... pay more money and get crank ground and purchase new 96mm cylinders, bearings, etc. Rebuild motor myself but don’t make any major changes – assume value-train is correct.

9) Install engine and it runs great for 2 years not a ton of power but it runs. All is good till metal shows up in oil.

10) 2023: Fat/Rimco goes out of business... because they absolutely sucked and possibly due, in part, to my "negative word of mouth" campaign (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif)

11) 2024: Tear down engine again. Realize that Rimco’s deck height measures over .080. Also, determined that I used the wrong ring set for the low profile KB pistons (needed to be pinned (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) ). The loose oil rings trashed another set of 96mm cylinders. Find cam thrust bearing damage, and push-rod and lifter damage.

12) 2025: Send parts to Automotive Machine & Supply to get case looked at and parts modified and balanced.

13) Wait 18 months patiently - finally tell owner that I have a spare case (since that was the hold-up). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/yellowsleep[1].gif)

14) 2026: Pick-up parts and start taking measurements – realize cases are not within spec.

[930cabman]

Whoa, quite the timeline. The learning experience is probably the only positive part that can be taken from this mess.

Myself I would rather attempt mostly any task and screw it up a couple times instead of having a professional screw it up.

I once heard a theory regarding any sort of work (ditch diggers, surgeons, lawyers, you name it): 1/3 of the professionals are really good , know their stuff and are standup guys, another 1/3 have their hearts in the right place but just can't get it right and the remaining 1/3 just don't have a clue. I'll bet it's a close approximation

Keep the course and yes there are nightmares, unfortunately with this engine you have lived it

[friethmiller]

@930cabman - so true! Thanks for your input/wisdom - and others as well. The downtime for the cases will not go to waste. Aside from working on the LE, I'm already "hot" on other tasks that need to be done for this car. You've already seen the new fuel return line and fuel regulator but I'm also working on installing TR's side-shift and external oil cooler kits. @ninja will be happy to hear I'm also installing dual CHT sensors and an AFR, which connects nicely to the TR exhaust.

[Ninja]

Awesome!

Chris's exhaust is exemplary!

Bit pricey but bad to the bone!

Ninja approved! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif)

[friethmiller]

Do I have to run the AFR gauge into the main cabin? This cable is thick. Would it be sufficient just run it into the engine bay and put the gauge there? I know it's not a gauge that you don't need all the time. Opinions welcome?

[Ninja]

I'd watch that gauge more than anything else but the tach...

INSIDE the car