Starting Problems, Starting with Throttle but Won't Idle Options

[wonkipop]

Some great advice from @Superhawk996 and @Wonkipop , as usual. I will only disagree with one thing Superhawk said -- if you ask for advice I do think you have some nominal obligation to come back and let everyone know what happened. People who find themselves in the same situation in the future will benefit from seeing what worked to solve your problem and how you got there. For me, that is the main utility of this forum and it seems a small price to pay for asking for help. Gary has been diligent in updating this thread, and I'm hopefull he is just one step away from the finish line.

dead on mate (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

i hope gary and his mechanic get this nailed without too much further frustration and i am very keen to know exactly what the issue turns out to be. difficult to help from this distance so can only really point to possibilities. but whatever it is that plagued him could very well turn out to be important for L jet owners to know.

I just heard from the mechanic, and he is asking for input on the following:
-The pump starts around 6 amps then climbs to 7.5-8 once fully warm (after over 20 minutes), and the relay box & wire terminals get fairly hot
-He needs a fuel pump amp/draw spec that can be verified (or pump resistance spec, either)
-We have torrential rain here so when it subsides he will perform a loaded fuel pressure test, but so far, pressure has stayed at approx. 34-35 PSI with the throttle open/regulator vacuum line disconnected.
-The car suffers from difficult hot-starting.
-Do you know of a source for a good OE cylinder head sensor or a good aftermarket one?

couple of things.

the 1.8 L jet (unlike the 17/2.0 D jets) does not run anything for the fuel injection through relays in the relay board in the engine bay.

in order to make this simple - watch this video by dr. 914. it comes up around the 7.30 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLgQxpNHzIU

there is a yellow wire which is power to the fuel pump during cranking start up.
which is evidently not your problem when it is starting cold.
so i am really not sure what your mechanic is saying about relays getting hot on the relay board - or does he mean the dual relay located just below the battery is getting hot?

clearly you have fuel pressure. and its correct at 35 psi.
i guess what you really want to know is it holding 35 psi under load.
but with vac hose off the FPR at idle it will be 35 as you have tested.

can't help you with current specs etc but looks like superhawke has that data.

but i tend to agree with him. you don't seem to have a problem with the fuel pump itself. its delivering spec pressure. but there is another test which is - is it delivering spec flow? reason for the two tests is that fuel pressure in the injector ring is a product of the fuel pressure regulator and fuel pump together, but ability to deliver flow is purely down to the fuel pump. all those tests are in the factory manual. i am pretty sure i gave you a link earlier in this thread to a website where you could download the factory manual. flow and pressure were the two tests i did on mine years back at recommission. its important that it can also deliver flow (ie a certain volume in a certain time).

i will think further about your hot start problem.
but do you or your mechanic think its flooding?
could it be a jammed open or leaky cold start injector.
fine when its starting cold. but not so good if its hot engine.
its unlikely, but worth checking.

and as superhawk suggests, you can test the CHT cold. but you also have to be able to test it when its hot. again specs for that are in the factory workshop manual.

i have not had to chase down a CHT but i am aware of discussions on this forum about the quality of aftermarket CHTs. i think superhawk is well up on that. as far as i know OEM ones are very hard to find. but again, before thinking that is the problem you need to test the one you have because unless its kaput then why replace it?

[nmkimosabe]

I don’t have a OEM 3 port pump on-site to measure. From Pelican:
.
If push comes to shove I can go retrieve one from storage and measure but I think he’s chasing ghosts if you have 34psi.

Did he measure the CHT resistance both hot and cold or is the request for a CHT supplier just throwing parts at it?

“ The car suffers from difficult hot-starting.”. Why has he not given you more detail on why it’s having trouble - is getting spark? Is it rich, is it lean?

@Superhawk996
Thanks for the feedback and pump info. I've passed along all of your comments to the mechanic this morning. Will keep you updated.

[nmkimosabe]

Some great advice from @Superhawk996 and @Wonkipop , as usual. I will only disagree with one thing Superhawk said -- if you ask for advice I do think you have some nominal obligation to come back and let everyone know what happened. People who find themselves in the same situation in the future will benefit from seeing what worked to solve your problem and how you got there. For me, that is the main utility of this forum and it seems a small price to pay for asking for help. Gary has been diligent in updating this thread, and I'm hopefull he is just one step away from the finish line.

dead on mate (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

i hope gary and his mechanic get this nailed without too much further frustration and i am very keen to know exactly what the issue turns out to be. difficult to help from this distance so can only really point to possibilities. but whatever it is that plagued him could very well turn out to be important for L jet owners to know.

I just heard from the mechanic, and he is asking for input on the following:
-The pump starts around 6 amps then climbs to 7.5-8 once fully warm (after over 20 minutes), and the relay box & wire terminals get fairly hot
-He needs a fuel pump amp/draw spec that can be verified (or pump resistance spec, either)
-We have torrential rain here so when it subsides he will perform a loaded fuel pressure test, but so far, pressure has stayed at approx. 34-35 PSI with the throttle open/regulator vacuum line disconnected.
-The car suffers from difficult hot-starting.
-Do you know of a source for a good OE cylinder head sensor or a good aftermarket one?

couple of things.

the 1.8 L jet (unlike the 17/2.0 D jets) does not run anything for the fuel injection through relays in the relay board in the engine bay.

in order to make this simple - watch this video by dr. 914. it comes up around the 7.30 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLgQxpNHzIU

there is a yellow wire which is power to the fuel pump during cranking start up.
which is evidently not your problem when it is starting cold.
so i am really not sure what your mechanic is saying about relays getting hot on the relay board - or does he mean the dual relay located just below the battery is getting hot?

clearly you have fuel pressure. and its correct at 35 psi.
i guess what you really want to know is it holding 35 psi under load.
but with vac hose off the FPR at idle it will be 35 as you have tested.

can't help you with current specs etc but looks like superhawke has that data.

but i tend to agree with him. you don't seem to have a problem with the fuel pump itself. its delivering spec pressure. but there is another test which is - is it delivering spec flow? reason for the two tests is that fuel pressure in the injector ring is a product of the fuel pressure regulator and fuel pump together, but ability to deliver flow is purely down to the fuel pump. all those tests are in the factory manual. i am pretty sure i gave you a link earlier in this thread to a website where you could download the factory manual. flow and pressure were the two tests i did on mine years back at recommission. its important that it can also deliver flow (ie a certain volume in a certain time).

i will think further about your hot start problem.
but do you or your mechanic think its flooding?
could it be a jammed open or leaky cold start injector.
fine when its starting cold. but not so good if its hot engine.
its unlikely, but worth checking.

and as superhawk suggests, you can test the CHT cold. but you also have to be able to test it when its hot. again specs for that are in the factory workshop manual.

i have not had to chase down a CHT but i am aware of discussions on this forum about the quality of aftermarket CHTs. i think superhawk is well up on that. as far as i know OEM ones are very hard to find. but again, before thinking that is the problem you need to test the one you have because unless its kaput then why replace it?

@wonkipop
Appreciate the feedback which I've edited and passed along to my mechanic to review. I watched the Dr. 914 video about the relay board months ago when I first started having issues. I assume he is talking about the dual relay, but I will confirm. I will look further at the factory manual for specs for pressure and flow. I'm going to give him some quiet time to absorb and better understand the info from you and superhawk!
Gary

[nmkimosabe]

Some great advice from @Superhawk996 and @Wonkipop , as usual. I will only disagree with one thing Superhawk said -- if you ask for advice I do think you have some nominal obligation to come back and let everyone know what happened. People who find themselves in the same situation in the future will benefit from seeing what worked to solve your problem and how you got there. For me, that is the main utility of this forum and it seems a small price to pay for asking for help. Gary has been diligent in updating this thread, and I'm hopefull he is just one step away from the finish line.

dead on mate (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

i hope gary and his mechanic get this nailed without too much further frustration and i am very keen to know exactly what the issue turns out to be. difficult to help from this distance so can only really point to possibilities. but whatever it is that plagued him could very well turn out to be important for L jet owners to know.

I just heard from the mechanic, and he is asking for input on the following:
-The pump starts around 6 amps then climbs to 7.5-8 once fully warm (after over 20 minutes), and the relay box & wire terminals get fairly hot
-He needs a fuel pump amp/draw spec that can be verified (or pump resistance spec, either)
-We have torrential rain here so when it subsides he will perform a loaded fuel pressure test, but so far, pressure has stayed at approx. 34-35 PSI with the throttle open/regulator vacuum line disconnected.
-The car suffers from difficult hot-starting.
-Do you know of a source for a good OE cylinder head sensor or a good aftermarket one?

couple of things.

the 1.8 L jet (unlike the 17/2.0 D jets) does not run anything for the fuel injection through relays in the relay board in the engine bay.

in order to make this simple - watch this video by dr. 914. it comes up around the 7.30 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLgQxpNHzIU

there is a yellow wire which is power to the fuel pump during cranking start up.
which is evidently not your problem when it is starting cold.
so i am really not sure what your mechanic is saying about relays getting hot on the relay board - or does he mean the dual relay located just below the battery is getting hot?

clearly you have fuel pressure. and its correct at 35 psi.
i guess what you really want to know is it holding 35 psi under load.
but with vac hose off the FPR at idle it will be 35 as you have tested.

can't help you with current specs etc but looks like superhawke has that data.

but i tend to agree with him. you don't seem to have a problem with the fuel pump itself. its delivering spec pressure. but there is another test which is - is it delivering spec flow? reason for the two tests is that fuel pressure in the injector ring is a product of the fuel pressure regulator and fuel pump together, but ability to deliver flow is purely down to the fuel pump. all those tests are in the factory manual. i am pretty sure i gave you a link earlier in this thread to a website where you could download the factory manual. flow and pressure were the two tests i did on mine years back at recommission. its important that it can also deliver flow (ie a certain volume in a certain time).

i will think further about your hot start problem.
but do you or your mechanic think its flooding?
could it be a jammed open or leaky cold start injector.
fine when its starting cold. but not so good if its hot engine.
its unlikely, but worth checking.

and as superhawk suggests, you can test the CHT cold. but you also have to be able to test it when its hot. again specs for that are in the factory workshop manual.

i have not had to chase down a CHT but i am aware of discussions on this forum about the quality of aftermarket CHTs. i think superhawk is well up on that. as far as i know OEM ones are very hard to find. but again, before thinking that is the problem you need to test the one you have because unless its kaput then why replace it?

@wonkipop
Appreciate the feedback which I've edited and passed along to my mechanic to review. I watched the Dr. 914 video about the relay board months ago when I first started having issues. I assume he is talking about the dual relay, but I will confirm. I will look further at the factory manual for specs for pressure and flow. I'm going to give him some quiet time to absorb and better understand the info from you and superhawk!
Gary

Here is an extensive update from my mechanic and he feels he has narrowed it down to these two issues:
I think we are looking at two remaining problems: a fire danger from a dangerously warm dual relay/fuel pump wiring and a hot start issue from an out of spec CHT sensor.

Right now the fuel pump produces consistent pressure at idle, but within a couple minutes of running the wiring and dual relay begin to become quite hot- enough so to have melted the sheathing on the wires adjacent to the dual relay previously. Today was dry enough to take the car out to test the fuel pressure under full load in third/fourth gear, it held steady at a hair over 35psi. This test, like the flow rate comparison, gives an indication that the pump can keep up with the fuel demand at peak power, so it performs well enough. My main concern is that this pump is drawing too much amperage and that is overheating the wiring and dual relay.

I was struggling to verify the 2.7amp fuel pump draw spec in an official manual; I found the same sources online that are included in some of the info from your contacts when I searched, but I couldn't corroborate it elsewhere. If that spec is accurate, we are drawing much more than that at 6 amps cold heading up to 7.5-8 when warm! There also appears to be no fuse on this circuit, amazingly. If we can confirm that 2.7amp figure, then I would change the pump ASAP and advise adding a dedicated wire and inline 5 amp fuse to protect the circuit. Also, a verified resistance specification could give us a similar confirmation of a pump problem that warrants replacement.

Regarding the hot start issue: during my pump draw test I had to stop and start the engine several times and I found that once the engine is fully warm and despite running smoothly just prior, it won't restart for about 10-15 minutes. I have checked the resistance of the CHT sensor when cold and hot. I recorded ~1600 Ohm at 70F ambient temp and ~60 with the engine fully warm, which tracks with the 017 sensor plot (I came upon the same page/graph when searching, but could not verify which sensor we have- your friend's message indicated that we have the 012). If we have a 012 sensor then the sensor is well outside of specification at both ends of the temp range. The engine seems to run much better with our ~250 Ohm resistor in line, so this leads me to seeking out a good quality sensor. I expect that between a lower drawing pump and a good CHT sensor we should be able to return the car to you.

My main fear is that the pump is drawing far too much current and could start a wire fire at the dual relay where contact and terminals have resistance. Can we confirm the 2.7 Amp pump draw spec that was found online or provide a resistance spec for this pump? The cold start injector passed a function test, leak test and resistance test and I confirmed a healthy spray pattern also. I believe the out of spec CHT sensor is the hot start issue at this point.

In response to your other contact and the hot start issue:
The spark is consistent and strong at all times, but I haven't yet found another fueling fault before the car will restart on it's own. Today the 'warm' start was quite easy after driving a couple miles for the pressure test. My first take is that the fuel mix is incorrect for starting due to the out of spec CHT sensor, and that my temporary inline resistor helps with cold start and warm up but makes the hot start much more difficult- before I installed the temporary resistor the situation was reversed with the cold start very difficult and the warm restart much better.

To summarize:
Based on the specs that we have found, both the pump and CHT sensor are out of range. Any additional sources of verification of our specs would serve to confirm the diagnosis, but I would source the best quality CHT sensor available at this point. I would also replace the fuel pump, improve the wiring at the pump that has been modified in the past and also run a dedicated wire for the fuel pump circuit to the dual relay, adding likely a 5amp fuse and replacing the melted power wire and overheated spade terminal.

[Superhawk996]

Give me a day or so and I’ll dig a 3 port fuel pump out of storage

Good information & good progress. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

[wonkipop]

yeah that is interesting about the fuel pump in the 1.8 having no fuse.
pretty sure that is the case and can remember thinking about this 5 pr 6 years ago when it came to my own car. back then i was getting my head around all the ways an L jet was different from a D jet and sifting through the factory manuals trying to nail down all the pages etc relevant to the L jet.
did not ever resolve that thought back then and forgot about it.
might return to that one myself and dig in again on the question of a fuse.
nice bit of reminder to do info!

sounds like your mechanic might have nailed it down.

curious about the fuel pump.
i know that if you tighten down the pump head plate too much (ie the plate the encases the roller cell part at the top of the pump - or bottom whichever way you want to orientate it) then the pump will stall or bind. i know that one from rebuilding mine. you got to tighten down those 4 screws carefully and slowly and test the pump to make sure she spins up nice and free but does not leak at the same time. i wonder if the inside of the roller cell portion got a bit of corrosion in it or foreign material and is binding enough to make the pump really labour and draw that excess current? very interesting diagnosis. top stuff.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[nmkimosabe]

yeah that is interesting about the fuel pump in the 1.8 having no fuse.
pretty sure that is the case and can remember thinking about this 5 pr 6 years ago when it came to my own car. back then i was getting my head around all the ways an L jet was different from a D jet and sifting through the factory manuals trying to nail down all the pages etc relevant to the L jet.
did not ever resolve that thought back then and forgot about it.
might return to that one myself and dig in again on the question of a fuse.
nice bit of reminder to do info!

sounds like your mechanic might have nailed it down.

curious about the fuel pump.
i know that if you tighten down the pump head plate too much (ie the plate the encases the roller cell part at the top of the pump - or bottom whichever way you want to orientate it) then the pump will stall or bind. i know that one from rebuilding mine. you got to tighten down those 4 screws carefully and slowly and test the pump to make sure she spins up nice and free but does not leak at the same time. i wonder if the inside of the roller cell portion got a bit of corrosion in it or foreign material and is binding enough to make the pump really labour and draw that excess current? very interesting diagnosis. top stuff.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Good info about the fuel pump and I will pass that on. Not sure about the fuse but in the video, you sent me I know the D-jet has a relay in the relay board unlike the L-jet.
I ordered a fuel pump and a Porsche branded CHT sensor. Stay tuned and thanks again.

[nmkimosabe]

Give me a day or so and I’ll dig a 3 port fuel pump out of storage

Good information & good progress. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

Thanks for taking the time to find the fuel pump. The mechanic used the CHT chart you provided and what is weird is it tested out as 016 version and it should be a 012. I bought one months ago, and it did not indicate either spec and I think that is the one he has been using in the car and testing and creating problems?

[Superhawk996]

Give me a day or so and I’ll dig a 3 port fuel pump out of storage

Good information & good progress. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

Thanks for taking the time to find the fuel pump. The mechanic used the CHT chart you provided and what is weird is it tested out as 016 version and it should be a 012. I bought one months ago, and it did not indicate either spec and I think that is the one he has been using in the car and testing and creating problems?

The 017 is NLA sensor for the 2.0L. Rare as hens teeth.

Anything you buy is going to be designed after the 012. I did a quick check last night to see if anyone has a OEM Bosch 012 for sale - didn’t see one. They pop up time to time. If you can find one that is the best. Aftermarket is a bit hit or miss on reliability but better than a bad one.

[nmkimosabe]

Give me a day or so and I’ll dig a 3 port fuel pump out of storage

Good information & good progress. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

Thanks for taking the time to find the fuel pump. The mechanic used the CHT chart you provided and what is weird is it tested out as 016 version and it should be a 012. I bought one months ago, and it did not indicate either spec and I think that is the one he has been using in the car and testing and creating problems?

The 017 is NLA sensor for the 2.0L. Rare as hens teeth.

Anything you buy is going to be designed after the 012. I did a quick check last night to see if anyone has a OEM Bosch 012 for sale - didn’t see one. They pop up time to time. If you can find one that is the best. Aftermarket is a bit hit or miss on reliability but better than a bad one.

I looked yesterday and couldn't find a Bosch one. I bought one from Pelican and after speaking with the parts guy he swears it's a Porsche branded and not URO part. I should get it on Monday and will see.

[wonkipop]

yeah that is interesting about the fuel pump in the 1.8 having no fuse.
pretty sure that is the case and can remember thinking about this 5 pr 6 years ago when it came to my own car. back then i was getting my head around all the ways an L jet was different from a D jet and sifting through the factory manuals trying to nail down all the pages etc relevant to the L jet.
did not ever resolve that thought back then and forgot about it.
might return to that one myself and dig in again on the question of a fuse.
nice bit of reminder to do info!

sounds like your mechanic might have nailed it down.

curious about the fuel pump.
i know that if you tighten down the pump head plate too much (ie the plate the encases the roller cell part at the top of the pump - or bottom whichever way you want to orientate it) then the pump will stall or bind. i know that one from rebuilding mine. you got to tighten down those 4 screws carefully and slowly and test the pump to make sure she spins up nice and free but does not leak at the same time. i wonder if the inside of the roller cell portion got a bit of corrosion in it or foreign material and is binding enough to make the pump really labour and draw that excess current? very interesting diagnosis. top stuff.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Good info about the fuel pump and I will pass that on. Not sure about the fuse but in the video, you sent me I know the D-jet has a relay in the relay board unlike the L-jet.
I ordered a fuel pump and a Porsche branded CHT sensor. Stay tuned and thanks again.

on the basis of your mechanic's report you ought to buy yourself some glue and adhere yourself to his services. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) i do believe he is methodical in the best way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) i mean i am half way around the planet inhabiting "the a hole of the world" as ava gardner once described my city in the most poetic terms but even from this distance he sounds like the real deal.

[nmkimosabe]

yeah that is interesting about the fuel pump in the 1.8 having no fuse.
pretty sure that is the case and can remember thinking about this 5 pr 6 years ago when it came to my own car. back then i was getting my head around all the ways an L jet was different from a D jet and sifting through the factory manuals trying to nail down all the pages etc relevant to the L jet.
did not ever resolve that thought back then and forgot about it.
might return to that one myself and dig in again on the question of a fuse.
nice bit of reminder to do info!

sounds like your mechanic might have nailed it down.

curious about the fuel pump.
i know that if you tighten down the pump head plate too much (ie the plate the encases the roller cell part at the top of the pump - or bottom whichever way you want to orientate it) then the pump will stall or bind. i know that one from rebuilding mine. you got to tighten down those 4 screws carefully and slowly and test the pump to make sure she spins up nice and free but does not leak at the same time. i wonder if the inside of the roller cell portion got a bit of corrosion in it or foreign material and is binding enough to make the pump really labour and draw that excess current? very interesting diagnosis. top stuff.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Good info about the fuel pump and I will pass that on. Not sure about the fuse but in the video, you sent me I know the D-jet has a relay in the relay board unlike the L-jet.
I ordered a fuel pump and a Porsche branded CHT sensor. Stay tuned and thanks again.

on the basis of your mechanic's report you ought to buy yourself some glue and adhere yourself to his services. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) i do believe he is methodical in the best way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) i mean i am half way around the planet inhabiting "the a hole of the world" as ava gardner once described my city in the most poetic terms but even from this distance he sounds like the real deal.

That's pretty funny as his repair shop is called "Meticulous Motors". Sometimes I get a little frustrated because he's so analytical but it's a good thing.

[wonkipop]

yeah that is interesting about the fuel pump in the 1.8 having no fuse.
pretty sure that is the case and can remember thinking about this 5 pr 6 years ago when it came to my own car. back then i was getting my head around all the ways an L jet was different from a D jet and sifting through the factory manuals trying to nail down all the pages etc relevant to the L jet.
did not ever resolve that thought back then and forgot about it.
might return to that one myself and dig in again on the question of a fuse.
nice bit of reminder to do info!

sounds like your mechanic might have nailed it down.

curious about the fuel pump.
i know that if you tighten down the pump head plate too much (ie the plate the encases the roller cell part at the top of the pump - or bottom whichever way you want to orientate it) then the pump will stall or bind. i know that one from rebuilding mine. you got to tighten down those 4 screws carefully and slowly and test the pump to make sure she spins up nice and free but does not leak at the same time. i wonder if the inside of the roller cell portion got a bit of corrosion in it or foreign material and is binding enough to make the pump really labour and draw that excess current? very interesting diagnosis. top stuff.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Good info about the fuel pump and I will pass that on. Not sure about the fuse but in the video, you sent me I know the D-jet has a relay in the relay board unlike the L-jet.
I ordered a fuel pump and a Porsche branded CHT sensor. Stay tuned and thanks again.

on the basis of your mechanic's report you ought to buy yourself some glue and adhere yourself to his services. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) i do believe he is methodical in the best way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) i mean i am half way around the planet inhabiting "the a hole of the world" as ava gardner once described my city in the most poetic terms but even from this distance he sounds like the real deal.

That's pretty funny as his repair shop is called "Meticulous Motors". Sometimes I get a little frustrated because he's so analytical but it's a good thing.

yes.

anyway there are a few things that could be causing that fuel pump high amp draw.

could be internal to the pump.
don't think brushes or commutator - once they wear down its usually a simple no go.
but possibly bearings on shaft finally worn out. might be some metal debris inside the pump and though its still spinning its getting harder to make itself spin up. those old 3 ports are built like tiger tanks internally but eventually i suppose there is end of life. and as i mentioned its possible that the roller cell head on the pump has become clogged in some way. more than likely that debris has made it past the filter.

or the other possibility is a restriction. due either to clogged filter. internally collapsed fuel line somewhere on the line from tank to pump. or in the tank itself.
at the pickup and sock.

the flow delivery test on the pump can sometimes show this up.
i think the flow test will certainly show up an internal problem to the pump if its there.
might not show up a blockage issue as these often set in after a few minutes of running the car.

[nmkimosabe]

yeah that is interesting about the fuel pump in the 1.8 having no fuse.
pretty sure that is the case and can remember thinking about this 5 pr 6 years ago when it came to my own car. back then i was getting my head around all the ways an L jet was different from a D jet and sifting through the factory manuals trying to nail down all the pages etc relevant to the L jet.
did not ever resolve that thought back then and forgot about it.
might return to that one myself and dig in again on the question of a fuse.
nice bit of reminder to do info!

sounds like your mechanic might have nailed it down.

curious about the fuel pump.
i know that if you tighten down the pump head plate too much (ie the plate the encases the roller cell part at the top of the pump - or bottom whichever way you want to orientate it) then the pump will stall or bind. i know that one from rebuilding mine. you got to tighten down those 4 screws carefully and slowly and test the pump to make sure she spins up nice and free but does not leak at the same time. i wonder if the inside of the roller cell portion got a bit of corrosion in it or foreign material and is binding enough to make the pump really labour and draw that excess current? very interesting diagnosis. top stuff.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Good info about the fuel pump and I will pass that on. Not sure about the fuse but in the video, you sent me I know the D-jet has a relay in the relay board unlike the L-jet.
I ordered a fuel pump and a Porsche branded CHT sensor. Stay tuned and thanks again.

on the basis of your mechanic's report you ought to buy yourself some glue and adhere yourself to his services. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) i do believe he is methodical in the best way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) i mean i am half way around the planet inhabiting "the a hole of the world" as ava gardner once described my city in the most poetic terms but even from this distance he sounds like the real deal.

That's pretty funny as his repair shop is called "Meticulous Motors". Sometimes I get a little frustrated because he's so analytical but it's a good thing.

yes.

anyway there are a few things that could be causing that fuel pump high amp draw.

could be internal to the pump.
don't think brushes or commutator - once they wear down its usually a simple no go.
but possibly bearings on shaft finally worn out. might be some metal debris inside the pump and though its still spinning its getting harder to make itself spin up. those old 3 ports are built like tiger tanks internally but eventually i suppose there is end of life. and as i mentioned its possible that the roller cell head on the pump has become clogged in some way. more than likely that debris has made it past the filter.

or the other possibility is a restriction. due either to clogged filter. internally collapsed fuel line somewhere on the line from tank to pump. or in the tank itself.
at the pickup and sock.

the flow delivery test on the pump can sometimes show this up.
i think the flow test will certainly show up an internal problem to the pump if its there.
might not show up a blockage issue as these often set in after a few minutes of running the car.

Good info and I will ask him. I know he replaced the filter and did say he saw small pieces of metal in the fuel line which would indicate internal failure. I did ask about the tank sock and collapsed fuel lines but will follow-up. I went ahead and ordered a fuel pump and CHT sensor based on his diagnosis so he can replace and I can get my car back.

[wonkipop]

yeah that is interesting about the fuel pump in the 1.8 having no fuse.
pretty sure that is the case and can remember thinking about this 5 pr 6 years ago when it came to my own car. back then i was getting my head around all the ways an L jet was different from a D jet and sifting through the factory manuals trying to nail down all the pages etc relevant to the L jet.
did not ever resolve that thought back then and forgot about it.
might return to that one myself and dig in again on the question of a fuse.
nice bit of reminder to do info!

sounds like your mechanic might have nailed it down.

curious about the fuel pump.
i know that if you tighten down the pump head plate too much (ie the plate the encases the roller cell part at the top of the pump - or bottom whichever way you want to orientate it) then the pump will stall or bind. i know that one from rebuilding mine. you got to tighten down those 4 screws carefully and slowly and test the pump to make sure she spins up nice and free but does not leak at the same time. i wonder if the inside of the roller cell portion got a bit of corrosion in it or foreign material and is binding enough to make the pump really labour and draw that excess current? very interesting diagnosis. top stuff.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Good info about the fuel pump and I will pass that on. Not sure about the fuse but in the video, you sent me I know the D-jet has a relay in the relay board unlike the L-jet.
I ordered a fuel pump and a Porsche branded CHT sensor. Stay tuned and thanks again.

on the basis of your mechanic's report you ought to buy yourself some glue and adhere yourself to his services. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) i do believe he is methodical in the best way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) i mean i am half way around the planet inhabiting "the a hole of the world" as ava gardner once described my city in the most poetic terms but even from this distance he sounds like the real deal.

That's pretty funny as his repair shop is called "Meticulous Motors". Sometimes I get a little frustrated because he's so analytical but it's a good thing.

yes.

anyway there are a few things that could be causing that fuel pump high amp draw.

could be internal to the pump.
don't think brushes or commutator - once they wear down its usually a simple no go.
but possibly bearings on shaft finally worn out. might be some metal debris inside the pump and though its still spinning its getting harder to make itself spin up. those old 3 ports are built like tiger tanks internally but eventually i suppose there is end of life. and as i mentioned its possible that the roller cell head on the pump has become clogged in some way. more than likely that debris has made it past the filter.

or the other possibility is a restriction. due either to clogged filter. internally collapsed fuel line somewhere on the line from tank to pump. or in the tank itself.
at the pickup and sock.

the flow delivery test on the pump can sometimes show this up.
i think the flow test will certainly show up an internal problem to the pump if its there.
might not show up a blockage issue as these often set in after a few minutes of running the car.

Good info and I will ask him. I know he replaced the filter and did say he saw small pieces of metal in the fuel line which would indicate internal failure. I did ask about the tank sock and collapsed fuel lines but will follow-up. I went ahead and ordered a fuel pump and CHT sensor based on his diagnosis so he can replace and I can get my car back.

i would suggest as part of all this work and end solution you fit a high pressure full flow fuel filter after the pump. you can position it in the engine bay itself between where the lines come up into engine bay and before the injector ring. this will protect the injectors from a future pump detonation. modern turbine style pumps are def not built like tiger tanks internally. this will protect your injectors for the future.

i installed one on my 1.8 back when i recommissioned as injector insurance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
i am sure superhawk would agree with me. you can leave the filter in before the pump, but install additionally the full flow high pressure filter after it.

yeah if he found metal in the lines something has let go inside the old pump.
probably a bearing. the whole pump is flooded with fuel when it runs. the fuel is the lubricant for the pump internals - its completely immersed in fuel internally.

[nmkimosabe]

yeah that is interesting about the fuel pump in the 1.8 having no fuse.
pretty sure that is the case and can remember thinking about this 5 pr 6 years ago when it came to my own car. back then i was getting my head around all the ways an L jet was different from a D jet and sifting through the factory manuals trying to nail down all the pages etc relevant to the L jet.
did not ever resolve that thought back then and forgot about it.
might return to that one myself and dig in again on the question of a fuse.
nice bit of reminder to do info!

sounds like your mechanic might have nailed it down.

curious about the fuel pump.
i know that if you tighten down the pump head plate too much (ie the plate the encases the roller cell part at the top of the pump - or bottom whichever way you want to orientate it) then the pump will stall or bind. i know that one from rebuilding mine. you got to tighten down those 4 screws carefully and slowly and test the pump to make sure she spins up nice and free but does not leak at the same time. i wonder if the inside of the roller cell portion got a bit of corrosion in it or foreign material and is binding enough to make the pump really labour and draw that excess current? very interesting diagnosis. top stuff.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Good info about the fuel pump and I will pass that on. Not sure about the fuse but in the video, you sent me I know the D-jet has a relay in the relay board unlike the L-jet.
I ordered a fuel pump and a Porsche branded CHT sensor. Stay tuned and thanks again.

on the basis of your mechanic's report you ought to buy yourself some glue and adhere yourself to his services. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) i do believe he is methodical in the best way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) i mean i am half way around the planet inhabiting "the a hole of the world" as ava gardner once described my city in the most poetic terms but even from this distance he sounds like the real deal.

That's pretty funny as his repair shop is called "Meticulous Motors". Sometimes I get a little frustrated because he's so analytical but it's a good thing.

yes.

anyway there are a few things that could be causing that fuel pump high amp draw.

could be internal to the pump.
don't think brushes or commutator - once they wear down its usually a simple no go.
but possibly bearings on shaft finally worn out. might be some metal debris inside the pump and though its still spinning its getting harder to make itself spin up. those old 3 ports are built like tiger tanks internally but eventually i suppose there is end of life. and as i mentioned its possible that the roller cell head on the pump has become clogged in some way. more than likely that debris has made it past the filter.

or the other possibility is a restriction. due either to clogged filter. internally collapsed fuel line somewhere on the line from tank to pump. or in the tank itself.
at the pickup and sock.

the flow delivery test on the pump can sometimes show this up.
i think the flow test will certainly show up an internal problem to the pump if its there.
might not show up a blockage issue as these often set in after a few minutes of running the car.

Good info and I will ask him. I know he replaced the filter and did say he saw small pieces of metal in the fuel line which would indicate internal failure. I did ask about the tank sock and collapsed fuel lines but will follow-up. I went ahead and ordered a fuel pump and CHT sensor based on his diagnosis so he can replace and I can get my car back.

i would suggest as part of all this work and end solution you fit a high pressure full flow fuel filter after the pump. you can position it in the engine bay itself between where the lines come up into engine bay and before the injector ring. this will protect the injectors from a future pump detonation. modern turbine style pumps are def not built like tiger tanks internally. this will protect your injectors for the future.

i installed one on my 1.8 back when i recommissioned as injector insurance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
i am sure superhawk would agree with me. you can leave the filter in before the pump, but install additionally the full flow high pressure filter after it.

yeah if he found metal in the lines something has let go inside the old pump.
probably a bearing. the whole pump is flooded with fuel when it runs. the fuel is the lubricant for the pump internals - its completely immersed in fuel internally.

That's a good idea. Is there a specific brand you might recommend?

[wonkipop]

yeah that is interesting about the fuel pump in the 1.8 having no fuse.
pretty sure that is the case and can remember thinking about this 5 pr 6 years ago when it came to my own car. back then i was getting my head around all the ways an L jet was different from a D jet and sifting through the factory manuals trying to nail down all the pages etc relevant to the L jet.
did not ever resolve that thought back then and forgot about it.
might return to that one myself and dig in again on the question of a fuse.
nice bit of reminder to do info!

sounds like your mechanic might have nailed it down.

curious about the fuel pump.
i know that if you tighten down the pump head plate too much (ie the plate the encases the roller cell part at the top of the pump - or bottom whichever way you want to orientate it) then the pump will stall or bind. i know that one from rebuilding mine. you got to tighten down those 4 screws carefully and slowly and test the pump to make sure she spins up nice and free but does not leak at the same time. i wonder if the inside of the roller cell portion got a bit of corrosion in it or foreign material and is binding enough to make the pump really labour and draw that excess current? very interesting diagnosis. top stuff.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Good info about the fuel pump and I will pass that on. Not sure about the fuse but in the video, you sent me I know the D-jet has a relay in the relay board unlike the L-jet.
I ordered a fuel pump and a Porsche branded CHT sensor. Stay tuned and thanks again.

on the basis of your mechanic's report you ought to buy yourself some glue and adhere yourself to his services. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) i do believe he is methodical in the best way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) i mean i am half way around the planet inhabiting "the a hole of the world" as ava gardner once described my city in the most poetic terms but even from this distance he sounds like the real deal.

That's pretty funny as his repair shop is called "Meticulous Motors". Sometimes I get a little frustrated because he's so analytical but it's a good thing.

yes.

anyway there are a few things that could be causing that fuel pump high amp draw.

could be internal to the pump.
don't think brushes or commutator - once they wear down its usually a simple no go.
but possibly bearings on shaft finally worn out. might be some metal debris inside the pump and though its still spinning its getting harder to make itself spin up. those old 3 ports are built like tiger tanks internally but eventually i suppose there is end of life. and as i mentioned its possible that the roller cell head on the pump has become clogged in some way. more than likely that debris has made it past the filter.

or the other possibility is a restriction. due either to clogged filter. internally collapsed fuel line somewhere on the line from tank to pump. or in the tank itself.
at the pickup and sock.

the flow delivery test on the pump can sometimes show this up.
i think the flow test will certainly show up an internal problem to the pump if its there.
might not show up a blockage issue as these often set in after a few minutes of running the car.

Good info and I will ask him. I know he replaced the filter and did say he saw small pieces of metal in the fuel line which would indicate internal failure. I did ask about the tank sock and collapsed fuel lines but will follow-up. I went ahead and ordered a fuel pump and CHT sensor based on his diagnosis so he can replace and I can get my car back.

i would suggest as part of all this work and end solution you fit a high pressure full flow fuel filter after the pump. you can position it in the engine bay itself between where the lines come up into engine bay and before the injector ring. this will protect the injectors from a future pump detonation. modern turbine style pumps are def not built like tiger tanks internally. this will protect your injectors for the future.

i installed one on my 1.8 back when i recommissioned as injector insurance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
i am sure superhawk would agree with me. you can leave the filter in before the pump, but install additionally the full flow high pressure filter after it.

yeah if he found metal in the lines something has let go inside the old pump.
probably a bearing. the whole pump is flooded with fuel when it runs. the fuel is the lubricant for the pump internals - its completely immersed in fuel internally.

That's a good idea. Is there a specific brand you might recommend?

i reckon your english mechanic would know the better ones to get locally there in the USA. he'd know what spec/size is right. he might need to make a little bracket to mount it to. you could adapt something off the bracket that holds the decel valve - it will end up in proximity to the decel ideally.

[nmkimosabe]

yeah that is interesting about the fuel pump in the 1.8 having no fuse.
pretty sure that is the case and can remember thinking about this 5 pr 6 years ago when it came to my own car. back then i was getting my head around all the ways an L jet was different from a D jet and sifting through the factory manuals trying to nail down all the pages etc relevant to the L jet.
did not ever resolve that thought back then and forgot about it.
might return to that one myself and dig in again on the question of a fuse.
nice bit of reminder to do info!

sounds like your mechanic might have nailed it down.

curious about the fuel pump.
i know that if you tighten down the pump head plate too much (ie the plate the encases the roller cell part at the top of the pump - or bottom whichever way you want to orientate it) then the pump will stall or bind. i know that one from rebuilding mine. you got to tighten down those 4 screws carefully and slowly and test the pump to make sure she spins up nice and free but does not leak at the same time. i wonder if the inside of the roller cell portion got a bit of corrosion in it or foreign material and is binding enough to make the pump really labour and draw that excess current? very interesting diagnosis. top stuff.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Good info about the fuel pump and I will pass that on. Not sure about the fuse but in the video, you sent me I know the D-jet has a relay in the relay board unlike the L-jet.
I ordered a fuel pump and a Porsche branded CHT sensor. Stay tuned and thanks again.

on the basis of your mechanic's report you ought to buy yourself some glue and adhere yourself to his services. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) i do believe he is methodical in the best way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) i mean i am half way around the planet inhabiting "the a hole of the world" as ava gardner once described my city in the most poetic terms but even from this distance he sounds like the real deal.

That's pretty funny as his repair shop is called "Meticulous Motors". Sometimes I get a little frustrated because he's so analytical but it's a good thing.

yes.

anyway there are a few things that could be causing that fuel pump high amp draw.

could be internal to the pump.
don't think brushes or commutator - once they wear down its usually a simple no go.
but possibly bearings on shaft finally worn out. might be some metal debris inside the pump and though its still spinning its getting harder to make itself spin up. those old 3 ports are built like tiger tanks internally but eventually i suppose there is end of life. and as i mentioned its possible that the roller cell head on the pump has become clogged in some way. more than likely that debris has made it past the filter.

or the other possibility is a restriction. due either to clogged filter. internally collapsed fuel line somewhere on the line from tank to pump. or in the tank itself.
at the pickup and sock.

the flow delivery test on the pump can sometimes show this up.
i think the flow test will certainly show up an internal problem to the pump if its there.
might not show up a blockage issue as these often set in after a few minutes of running the car.

Good info and I will ask him. I know he replaced the filter and did say he saw small pieces of metal in the fuel line which would indicate internal failure. I did ask about the tank sock and collapsed fuel lines but will follow-up. I went ahead and ordered a fuel pump and CHT sensor based on his diagnosis so he can replace and I can get my car back.

i would suggest as part of all this work and end solution you fit a high pressure full flow fuel filter after the pump. you can position it in the engine bay itself between where the lines come up into engine bay and before the injector ring. this will protect the injectors from a future pump detonation. modern turbine style pumps are def not built like tiger tanks internally. this will protect your injectors for the future.

i installed one on my 1.8 back when i recommissioned as injector insurance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
i am sure superhawk would agree with me. you can leave the filter in before the pump, but install additionally the full flow high pressure filter after it.

yeah if he found metal in the lines something has let go inside the old pump.
probably a bearing. the whole pump is flooded with fuel when it runs. the fuel is the lubricant for the pump internals - its completely immersed in fuel internally.

That's a good idea. Is there a specific brand you might recommend?

i reckon your english mechanic would know the better ones to get locally there in the USA. he'd know what spec/size is right. he might need to make a little bracket to mount it to. you could adapt something off the bracket that holds the decel valve - it will end up in proximity to the decel ideally.

I will mention it to him this week. Thanks again for your insights.

[Superhawk996]

Sorry for sloppy test setup.

Here are the current draws.

No load - initially pumping air mix - pinkish (1.6A):


Dead head pressure line- forcing relief valve to open (2.2A):


Cutoff supply line (1.7A):


Note: in no case will a clogged tank sock or clogged fuel filter cause you to draw the excessive current that you’re seeing.

[nmkimosabe]

Sorry for sloppy test setup.

Here are the current draws.

No load - initially pumping air mix - pinkish (1.6A):


Dead head pressure line- forcing relief valve to open (2.2A):


Cutoff supply line (1.7A):


Note: in no case will a clogged tank sock or clogged fuel filter cause you to draw the excessive current that you’re seeing.

Impressive....as they say "a picture is worth a thousand words" and thanks for going to all the trouble to set this up. It definitely shows the appropriate 2.7-amp draw. It's more and more pointing to an internal failure of the fuel pump overheating. Is this a correct assessment in your opinion? I will forward these pics to the mechanic.