What size heim joints for custom tie rods? Options

[914turboford]

What size tie rods should be used to get the proper strength to make up some custom tie rods? Would 7/16" be adequate or should 1/2" be used?
Brian

[Aaron Cox]

look at a SRP bumpsteer kit. it replaces outer ball end with a heim.....

[Demick]

No offense intended, but if you need to ask a question like that, you probably shouldn't be making them.

Demick

[914turboford]

QUOTE (Demick @ Oct 3 2005, 12:13 PM)

No offense intended, but if you need to ask a question like that, you probably shouldn't be making them. Demick

Well, yes, I do take offense at that. I know how to look up the specs on the joints and I know how to calculate an assumed load on the joint. I do, after all, have a B.S. in mechanical engineering technology, CSU Sacramento, 1989. What is the major of your bachelor's degree? Whatever it is, do you think there is any value in asking for advice from people that have done what you are trying to do? When something is built and tested we call the results "emperical evidence".
Brian

[MattR]

Im going to side with Demick, but I see a flame war.

If you can calculate the loads, why not put in your safety factor and look up a heim joint? It aint rocket science.

You paid a lot for that degree... I know how much mine cost. Put it to use.

[lapuwali]

QUOTE (914turboford @ Oct 3 2005, 02:12 PM)

QUOTE (Demick @ Oct 3 2005, 12:13 PM) No offense intended, but if you need to ask a question like that, you probably shouldn't be making them. Demick Well, yes, I do take offense at that. I know how to look up the specs on the joints and I know how to calculate an assumed load on the joint. I do, after all, have a B.S. in mechanical engineering technology, CSU Sacramento, 1989. What is the major of your bachelor's degree? Whatever it is, do you think there is any value in asking for advice from people that have done what you are trying to do? When something is built and tested we call the results "emperical evidence". Brian

So, sounds like you need to be telling us, then. It's unlikely anyone here has designed your custom tie rods exactly, and since you didn't post any details, it's pretty hard to know exactly what you're doing, anyway. Therefore, your question, as posted, was pretty much impossible to answer. Getting all snippy when someone suggested you were in over your head isn't called for. I assumed the same thing when I read your first post.

I have a question for you: how are you attaching the heim joints to the steering arm?

[URY914]

Why do you want to do this modification if I may ask?

Paul

[ArtechnikA]

QUOTE (914turboford @ Oct 3 2005, 03:20 PM)

What size tie rods should be used to get the proper strength to make up some custom tie rods?

single or double-shear?
street or track?
AX or race?
sprint race or endurance?

[Demick]

QUOTE (914turboford @ Oct 3 2005, 03:12 PM)

I do, after all, have a B.S. in mechanical engineering technology, CSU Sacramento, 1989. What is the major of your bachelor's degree?

Well, since you ask, that would be a Bachelors in Mechanical Engineering, minor in Materials Science (1992) followed up with a Masters Degree in Mechanical Engineering from UC Davis (1993).

Demick

[URY914]

QUOTE (Demick @ Oct 3 2005, 04:35 PM)

QUOTE (914turboford @ Oct 3 2005, 03:12 PM) I do, after all, have a B.S. in mechanical engineering technology, CSU Sacramento, 1989. What is the major of your bachelor's degree? Well, since you ask, that would be a Bachelors in Mechanical Engineering, minor in Materials Science (1992) followed up with a Masters Degree in Mechanical Engineering from UC Davis (1993). Demick

And the winner in the "I Have More Big Framed Paper On My Walls Contest" is....

Demick (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif)

I only have two degrees (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sad.gif)

Paul (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[Mueller]

QUOTE (URY914 @ Oct 3 2005, 05:41 PM)

I only have two degrees (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sad.gif) Paul (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

I got you beat, currently I have 72° (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

[URY914]

Mike, I'm calling "Thread Hijack" on you. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/mad.gif)
You must sit out off line for 15 minutes. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

PS: For all you guys that have no sense of humor and just are waiting to flame me...
That was a joke. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

P

[914turboford]

OK Demick, you are qualified to challenge me and I see that I could have asked my question more intelligently. For one thing, I meant "what size rod end", not "what size tie rod".

For me, I just wouldn't assume that someone is stupid for asking a question like this. I don't know why a simple "Most guys use 1/2 steel" would be so hard to say if you know. If you don't know then why join the discussion?

Other details: Street driven '73 914, Ford 2.3 turbo powered(see sig), about 200 hp for now (hopefully about 260 by next fall), 911 front end, 225/50/16's on the front. I plan to make clevises to thread into the rack in place of the rubber bushings. Then put a rod end inside the clevis. I plan to drill non tapered holes through the tapered ball joint holes in the steering arms like I did when I performed this mod on my Ford 5.0 EFI powered Mitsu pickup into which I installed Mustang power R&P. For that truck I used 9/16" rods which was probably overkill. One consideration, of course, is how much material is left of the steering arm after you drill out the tapered hole. My 911 steering arms look pretty dainty in this area but I figured this would be a fairly straightforward question.

Once again, if you don't know why get involved? Or why not tell someone how to go about doing the mod instead of how not to do it? That is what I try to do when I respond to posts.

BTW, I have a M.S., too. Mine is in Manufacturing Management, CSU, Sacramento, 1993. I also have a California Teaching Credential, Single Subject Mathematics, 1995, National University, which is a degree as well. So if you are counting, that is three.

However, I would defer to Demick's education on this matter. His degrees are a bit more intense and his Master's, at least, is from a more well respected school. Are you in the Sacramento area, Demick? Sorry to respond like a jerk and you did put me in my place.

After all this, can anyone answer my question and tell me what size rod ends are typically used in this application? Someone must have done this mod before.

[ArtechnikA]

QUOTE

Someone must have done this mod before

the factory did it about 30 years ago, for ~850HP endurance racers running slicks.
i thought the original question was on-point, actually - the factory street car Turbo tie rods were used on 450-HP street cars. they have no rubber in the design and are extremely well engineered and produced.

however, if you want the rod-end approach, check out the 935 front end shown here:
SmartRacingProducts
and/or the Bump Steer kit a few pages down.

[Demick]

Brian

Like I said in my first post, no offense intended. But, as you know, 914 owners are notorious for being cheap. Many are known to spend 5 hours in the garage jerry-rigging up some contraption to save from having to spend $20 on the correct part.

So when a newbie comes along (yes, your classification still says newbie even though you have been a member for 2 years) and says they want to make some tie rods and what size should they be, I naturally assume that the person is just being cheap and trying to save a few bucks over buying a proven solution like Turbo Tie Rods.

Now there tend to be a few items about a car that are very important to safety. Brakes probably being #1. But steering ranks up there pretty high I'd say. So when someone comes along and wants to fab up a new intake design for their motor - I say go for it. Worst thing that can happen is you ruin your motor or get stranded on the side of the road and have to get towed home. But when it comes to critical safety items - like steering - which tend to cause major bodily injury when they fail - I like to take a more conservative approach. Especially when given the conditions that I laid out in the previous paragraph.

So that's why I chose to enter this discussion even though I did not know the answer to your question.

If you spend much time on this board you will realize that you will always get a variety of opinions from various people - appreciated and not so appreciated. But it's always important to use your own head in the end - because much of the information you will get will be priceless - and much of it worthless (or worse - completely wrong). Remember, nobody paid an entry fee or took a test to get in here (myself included).

Take care
Demick

[Brett W]

The way you intend to mount the rod end on the steering arm will make a difference. I would start with turbo tie rods because of the ball on the rack side of the tie rod. Cut it down in length (so you don't have to find a weird metric female rod end) make and aluminum sleeve for adjustment. Then run a half inch rod end for street use. It will be over kill but it will be safe. If you will make a custom steering arm that can mount the rod end in double shear you can run a 7/16. My race car is going to weigh 1500lbs and I am using 3/8 mounted in double shear. Should be adequate.

There is no reason to do this on the street as you can use the turbo tie rods. You are not trying to get rid of the bumpsteer because your car will not be that low on the street. I really don't like the way ERP does their stuff. It may be fine from a weekend track racers point but it definitely isn't a well engineered product.

[andys]

QUOTE (914turboford @ Oct 3 2005, 06:23 PM)

Other details: Street driven '73 914, Ford 2.3 turbo powered(see sig), about 200 hp for now (hopefully about 260 by next fall), 911 front end, 225/50/16's on the front. I plan to make clevises to thread into the rack in place of the rubber bushings. Then put a rod end inside the clevis. I plan to drill non tapered holes through the tapered ball joint holes in the steering arms like I did when I performed this mod on my Ford 5.0 EFI powered Mitsu pickup into which I installed Mustang power R&P. For that truck I used 9/16" rods which was probably overkill. One consideration, of course, is how much material is left of the steering arm after you drill out the tapered hole. My 911 steering arms look pretty dainty in this area but I figured this would be a fairly straightforward question.

Brian,

As others' have suggested, why not simply go with the turbo tie rod kit? It gets rid of that rubber joint that you seem concerned with. IMO, you gain everything you're looking to fix, unless I'm mis-interpreting something. BTW, I'd suggest staying with (stock) tapered fasteners for your steering controls.

Andys

[airsix]

I'm going to take a slightly different aproach to this thread. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif)

Hi Brain! It's been a while since I've seen you posting here. Nice to have you back. Or, if you've been here and I just missed you... well, nice to hear from you.

About the ambush-like reaction you got from some? Dissapointing. Anyway, I have a rule of conduct for this board and it goes something like this. I dish out respect to guys here based in large part on their actions. When a guy here takes initiative and creates something better/cheaper/lighter/faster/better-looking and he does it with his own hands and his own brain he gets my respect. Based on your project history I'd say you have tenure (as do several other posters in this thread).

Keep us posted regarding your project(s). (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

-Ben M.

[Mueller]

The way I look at it (as should everyone else (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif) ) ....Demick was just be cautious and making sure you knew what you are getting into.

There are people here that post that ask similar questions that shouldn't even be allowed to hold a screwdriver due to lack of skill/knowledge or common sense (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

If someone else had asked the question and then the 1st and only response was "oh, a 1/4" joint would be fine".....what then???

Who is responsible when an accident occurs???

by the way, did you get any bites at all on your car when you tried to sell it a few months ago??

[airsix]

QUOTE (Mueller @ Oct 4 2005, 09:58 AM)

The way I look at it (as should everyone else (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif) ) ....Demick was just be cautious and making sure you knew what you are getting into. There are people here that post that ask similar questions that shouldn't even be allowed to hold a screwdriver due to lack of skill/knowledge or common sense (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif) If someone else had asked the question and then the 1st and only response was "oh, a 1/4" joint would be fine".....what then??? Who is responsible when an accident occurs???

Very good point.

-Ben M.