TYPE lV NIKASIL CYLINDERS, From 98mm to 104mm Options

[Jake Raby]

Bernie,
Lets don't Hi jack..
wait for the post- 45 days or less.

[typeonepowerhouse]

OK guys I have read all the post and thank you Jake for the kind words. I have to admit I was not complete on my add but will take care of that regaurding head studs and ring packages.By the way there are other head stud manufacturers out there that can make a compatable head stud to eliminate lifting. Raceware for one will make you anything you want!. I know your going to come back and say the magic of arp is this and that and you can only get them from this person or that person (whatever) If I can't buy it I will make it (BETTER). I do not hesitate to say that LN makes a good product because those things are bad ass. I have first hand seen them and dynoed them. YES I HAVE DYNOED LN NICKES and was very happy with the performance just not the price! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif) That is what prompted me to get these going. My goal is to offer a quaility product at a affordable price and if it happens I will be making alot of people happy and if not it wont be a lack of trying. Jake I will not sell you a set but instead will give you a set but remember goes both ways (give and take) Iwill take a set of 101.6 for a test session on a ring study I am doing (ALL CAST) and will give you what you would like! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)
Jack

[Jake Raby]

Jack...
Thanks for the post.. You may want to go on over to the Cal- Look forum and clear up some stuff there as well on the same subject.

In the early days LN used Raceware for head studs- results with the company and the product were not positive. The metallury of the stud has to be closely examined for total compatibility or you end up with the same results Porsche did in the 2.7 engines....

The problem is not "Lifting" of the cylinder heads, actually its the opposite of that as temperature rises and the cylinders and heads expand.... Studs that can't handle the expansion correctly over torque the heads and then you open up another new can of worms..... Hell it took almost a solid year of playing around with head torques before the optimum torque value was attained..... All this testing has not been cheap for Charles to pay for, He has spent several thousand dollars just with me and dyno time not to mention the strength yield tests and etc that have went into the product....... Jack, you will also encounter this and have to battle with it if you do intend to fully develop your product as well as LN has to date.

I certainly appreciate your offer of some cylinders for testing... I have NO PROBLEM creating a side by side comparison of your cylinders compared to the LN cylinders, even on the same engine (1 bank of cylinders LN and the other bank yours) and datalogging temps as well as overall engine expansion, head torque changes at various temps and etc... Then we'll drop the boost to it if you want! Charles would be the guy that would have to give up a set of his cylinders for the swap because he is the Mfr- I'm only a proponent of a bad ass product that I KNOW works and has all the bugs worked out of it... (thanks in part to your truly (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif) )

This LN cylinder is the largest made to date (105.07).. It was ran with .001 skirt clearance for 13,200 miles of pure hell and 27 dyno runs- the oil wasn't even changed from the day it was built on purpose...

(IMG:http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/r_d_3_OH/teardown/First%20group%20of%20pics%20026.jpg)

Jack, email me productdevelopment@aircooledtechnology.com so we can start some dialogue- I'd love to test the differences between the cast and Billet cylinders just to dis-spel some myths... Glad you joined us here (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

BTW- don't for one minute think that I'm biased for a single Manufacturer- thats far from the truth! I Love to make things the best they can be and thats what is going to keep this industry growing- not dying. I have no problem treating the two products equally with no bias... I'l try to kill them equally and the one that lives wins!

[cnavarro]

As i've done in the past more than once, i'm always open to loaning a set of Nickies for a side by side comparision to put on the dyno and collect data with the datalogger. Short of that, some FE or material analysis along with actual long term testing is in order- nothing short of what we went though before selling Nickies to the public with the original 2615 that built and a sister engine built by Jake. The latter has seen 100,000mi of use and abuse. Our test engine went through 35,000mi before it was torn down and parted out. The cylinders were re-ringed and used on another engine built by Jake. Through this testing, we've had cylinders come back for routine inspection and we've been able to verify dimensional stability. CMW has gone one step further and used rockwell testing to monitor our cylinders in their customer's race engines.

BTW, I have all the tooling and master molds for a cast 102 Nickies cylinder. There were just too many compromises going with a casting in our opinion and that's why we went billet, for those who didn't know.

[typeonepowerhouse]

So am I correct by saying there has been no problems to your Nickies even when you sell them with your rings and head studs, lets say in the last year (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif)

[cnavarro]

No, never did I say or claim that. Everyone here knows that. We're very open with the problems we have had over the years. We've had a few issues over the years, but in almost every case that I am aware of we were trying to fit another manufacturer's existing pistons provided by the customer to the cylinder where we don't have control over the existing ring configuration, hence trying to find rings that *should work*. I can count every set of Nickies that have come back in 5 years for replating for one reason or another on one hand, and that's including every line of cylinders.

I can say with 100% certainty that if the customer has a problem and he lets us know about the problem, we will work at it until we have a solution and get it fixed, no questions asked. That's what the lifetime warranty is for, since most any issue will boil down to plating, and that's why I use a plater who backs their work with that lifetime warranty. Do you have a particular person you are referring to. Unless you put a name to the set, it's heresay and conjecture. You also have claimed to have used and dynoed a set of Nickies- whose? I know where most every set of Nickies I have ever made has ended up and who owns them.

If you sell enough cylinders to a vast number of customers in a vast number of configurations, you will eventually have isolated problems. The difference is in how you handle them and what you learn and implement from them.

[JoeSharp]

Thanks for posting here and joining the club Jack.
I'd like to come over and check out your shop.
:PERMAGRIN: Joe

[Jake Raby]

Certain types of issues are actually a good thing... That may sound crazy, but its the truth... Issues have been the basis of my entire engine/research program- without negative results you can't identify positive results.... In the words of Thomas Edison "Results! why, man, I have gotten a lot of results. I know several thousand things that won't work."

Most of the issues with Charles' cylinders have been something that I have found personally on my dyno, or in one of the engines that I built for him specifically for this purpose. Most all of these were in the early days and were simple to "fix" and they have not been an issue since.

I do know of a couple of situations that the installer of the cylinders and their lack of experience with Nikasil have created less than perfect results. The most serious of these was aggrevated by excessive piston/cylinder clearance, improper ring set up (way too much end gap), and improper cylinder head torques just to name a few..... The end user listened to everyone but the Mfr, but none of those telling him how to build his engine had any Porsche experience, nor first hand Nickies experience. This coupled to his desire not to buy another set of more compatible pistons with the proper ring land was the root of his issue- no doubt. Nikisil isn't like a generic cast iron cylinder that can have the hone or plateau finishes altered for better compatibility with almost any ring; it requires certain compatibility and without it you are pissing in the wind.

Situations like this one net a customer very vocal with his issues, yet reserved with the actual truth behind those issues and the fact that maybe he CREATED the issues... Anyone who sells anything to anyone WILL have some sort of an issue at some point and time- the more exotic the project and the more demanding the assembly, the easier and more frequent they occur.

Jack or anyone else creating a cylinder program like this WILL ALSO HAVE ISSUES to work through and if they pay attention to the results, learn from them and take care of the customer it will be to their benefit as time progresses. Hell cast iron cylinders have been in use for well over 120 years in everything from steam engines to todays passeger cars.... even 120 years later there are STILL negative issues with something thats about as simple as they come- a good example of this is the inability of a Total Seal ring to ever really "seat" inside a stock Type IV cylinder, no matter the preparation. Remember that.

My philosophy is that if you don't have issues and break things you haven't pushed them hard enough- Try harder.

[Aaron Cox]

QUOTE (Joe Sharp @ Dec 16 2005, 10:30 AM)

Thanks for posting here and joining the club Jack. I'd like to come over and check out your shop. :PERMAGRIN: Joe

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif)

come over to joes on saturday....tomorrow....

[rick 918-S]

This is cool! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/popcorn[1].gif) This is how we get the best for less! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smiley_notworthy.gif) New products Rawk! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/aktion035.gif) Charles an Jack are the Men! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/burnout.gif)

[Type 4 Unleashed]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bootyshake.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

[Allan]

The Chinese Nikasil Cyl's are out.

Price is $950, come in 98mm, 100mm, 102mm, 103mm, 104mm.

Ring pac's have been worke out.

Studs used were the new 8740 Chro-moly, with good results.

Great, I paid less than half of that.

My weiner...

[Aaron Cox]

BTW - a really cool thread on STF about these....

[brer]

what pistons then...


need special order from what i gather.

[Type 4 Unleashed]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bootyshake.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[Jake Raby]

what pistons then...


need special order from what i gather.

A good choice is JE, they make them for the 911 Nikasil cyls'.

You are correct, custom's are required, to except the ring pacs needed to work with Nikasil plated cyl's.

Very good deductive reasoning.

Only direct, comparative testing and thousands of miles will prove this.

supposedly a set are on the way to me for observation. Results will be available on CD...

Lets just say I have quite a checklist these babies must pass to gain any respect from us..

Anything that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif) was behind must be approached with reservation.

[914werke]

Jake are you suggesting that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif) is the driving force behind these new Nickie type cylinders?

[bd1308]

this is unbelievable

Try just running them like theyre supposed to be run, instead of putting them under 30 # of boost and runnign 1200F head temps.

[Aaron Cox]

maybe at one time.... but no longer

[Jake Raby]

Yes, these were a development of our old buddy.. He left the Mfr hanging out to dry, just like dozens of other people...

For those interested in my findings I will prepare a CD available at a nominal charge.

These comparisons will be shared in comparison to cast iron cylinders currently on the market. I will be testing these cylinders against the current "Nickies" but the results of that testing will be for in house use only.

Cylinders are a crucial part of the entire operation of an aircooled engine, my tests will be based upon these factors that I work with everyday and enhanced by my 6 years of developmental research experience with the "Nickies" product line from LN Engineering.