OT: State of licensing in the US, How hard is it where you live? Options

[lapuwali]

Howard's thread about the consequences of not teaching teens how to drive got me wondering.

I went through the whole driver training ritual in 1980, so I have no idea what the current state of driver training is in the US. Texas (where I learned) had a pretty good program. Run in the high school, mandatory, with both driving classes, textbook classes, and an interesting interactive movie.

I'm told that most high schools don't have driver's ed anymore, due to cost-cutting. Is this true nationwide, or only here in California? Is it even true in all of California? I see "Student Driver" cars from time to time (saw one this morning), and I'm sure it's not mandatory. I presume this is strictly a private, voluntary thing?

I also know Europe is much stricter than here. I'm familiar with the UK testing system, how's the system in Germany (Andy?), or Austria (Gustl?), or the Netherlands (Yaroooon?).

Getting anyone to pay for better training in the US is probably politically impossible, though it strikes me that perhaps having the insurance companies help out here by offering a substantial discount from the usual outrageous teen driver rates for those teens who complete an accredited course sounds sensible to me.

[Mike D.]

QUOTE (ClayPerrine @ Jan 4 2006, 08:23 PM)

You want to hear a really good one........ Texas lets 16 year olds take drivers ed, then they are given a form to take to the Department of Public Safety offices. Once there, they just wait in line to get their license picture taken. NO ON THE ROAD DRIVING TEST REQUIRED!!!! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/WTF.gif) There are no restrictions on the licenses at all. They can take any road at any time. It really pisses me off. When I got my license, we had to take a driving test with a state trooper sitting next to you. I used a full sized Chevy van with no windows in the back, and I parallel parked it on the first try. The cop was so impressed he shortened up the rest of the test.

I too got my license in Texas back in '86. There is something about a big ass cop with a gun sitting next to you at 16 yrs. old, while your trying not to F-up. We had Drivers Ed in High School most kids took it as a summer class, quick and easy that way. My driving instructor was one of the football coaches. Had a big A&M class ring which he turned around on his left had and if you were about to do something stupid he'd step on his brake then wack you in the back of the head. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/lol2.gif) I also remember him making us drive to Mazda dealerships as he was looking for a new RX7... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/huh.gif)

In Cali they have bumped up the age on kids born after a certain date. Not sure what it is but they have to wait till 18. One of my friends kid is 14 this year and she has to wait for 18. As it is the 16-17 kids are not supposed to have other kids in the car, not supposed to drive after a certain hour, not sure of the details tho.

I live in Santa Clarita and I see a lot of kids in very powerful cars and just think it's a bad idea...

Here in LA we also have a lot of ADULTS that are driving for the first time. Couldn't afford a car in what ever country they came from, yada yada. I feel that many of these drivers are much worse that even teenagers. In addition to learning something later in life there is also a language or translation barriers.

Oh well.....

[Brando]

The DMV and driving regs here in CA are a joke.

There's too many uninsured motorists on the road, and people do not use common sense, or any sense for that matter. People are unaware that they are controlling a 1 to 2 ton chunk of steel... That's a lot of potential damage to anything even at 5mph. Having been hit by an uninsured driver who fled the scene, I can honestly tell you a felony conviction for that is not enough (she's still driving today!).

Rules state you take a written and driving test in an insured car and if you pass you pass. They do not offer Driver's Ed in public schools anymore. The best method to educate the new waves of young drivers would be to enroll them in defensive driving classes (akin to what commercial drivers have to do) and in the same DE events us ricky-racer types go to. I didn't really learn to drive until I was 20 after taking a few of those.

Also, police should enforce existing traffic codes -- not expand more and more and more. Too often I see CHiPs ignore reckless drivers (fast does not always mean reckless!). I also think there are not enough CHiPs to cover some cities down here. It's hard to uphold the rules of the road when you only have one officer covering an 80 mile stretch on 2 highways.

Those are my suggestions -- instead of raising registration fees, costing us more by passing legislation to up the age of driving... Offer classes mandatory (like the CHP-run motorcyle training classes for a class-M license) that enforce driver education. That would be good revenue. Also, when an unisured motorist (resident or illegal) is caught, nail them for the max allowable by law.

[dmenche914]

" Hidden costs" and "lost time" and you want to expand the DMV to include more test requirements???? Talk about costs and wasted time. I don't have the hard earned money to spend on such a program, nor waste the time, Not every driver would benifit, and it would not improve the accident problem much, as the real cause is inattention. I think 99% of the folks know when asked what tailgating is, know to keep their eyes and mind on the road, always look twice, know they should slow down in rain, snow fog, etc.... yet it seems that about half the folks don't remember it half the time while they are driving.

License restrictions, jail time and car wieght limitations on folks that cause bad crashes that hurt others is a good deterent, and it costs the state little for what it gains. We got too many repeat accident causers still driving, the problem is we are not impounding the cars, and pulling the license for long periods of times on the offenders, Thats the bottom line.

I have been hit at least five times by other drivers, three times in a car, twice while on a bike, every time the other driver was totally 100% at fault, four of the times the other driver was not injuried at all, yet I had big injuries that lasted for years in each one of these crashes. yeah about 1/4 my life I have been recovering from being injured by some other puke not paying attention (the cause in all five wrecks)

I want to know why they were allowed to continue driving, they proved to be in the bad half of the driving population.

Also the deterant effect: Say some one is not paying attention and wipes out three cars with their SUV, and ends up hurting a bunch of folks. If they loose thier SUV, and license for a long period, maybe a year or two, and have to take the bus. Persons that know the bad driver will see he is on the bus every day for a couple years, and that is a good constant reminder that it could happen too them also if they don't pay attention and cause aweck.

It has worked with DUI, Drunk driving deaths and wrecks is way down, once the cops AND the courts got tough. Used to be a slap on the wrist fine for a DUI. now it is jail time on first offense, car impounded, licesne revoked, breathalizer in car, and it racthets up real quick for repeat offenders.

I think there ought to be DWS laws (Driving While Stupid) If it fails as a deterent, at least it will keep the bad drivers off the road, and the worst behind bars.

Other than that the DMV ought to be abolished, it is simply a revenue machine for the fat cats in power, and a huge drain on citizens time and money. Look what it has produced: testing and issuing license to drivers on our roads that drive like crap. That proves the DMV's incompetance and uselessness.

Inspections for my car? That is also a big revenue deal. Sure cops should issue tickets (or warnings) to headlights out, brakelights not working, unsecured cargo, children bouncing around etc... but we already have enough inspection headaches with smog, that already costs me at least half a day per car every other year, plus about $80 when it is all said and done. I am not having some state ape mechanic crawl around my car which I make sure myself is in top conditon (example I check all my lights frequently) Nor do I want to pay for such a 'service" from my freindly Big Brother nose in my bussiness government. no way in hell. i have seen how they run the smog check, and am totally disguted by the costs, waste, and bueacracy involved. Sure I can see the need for a smog program, but the way the state runs it, no way.

You start a state inspection program and before you know it, the fat cats in power will want it to pay, so it will go beyond safety, and start to ding folks for small cracks in the glass, mufflers, might as well pop the hood, hey that's aginst federal law to have on your engine, big fine, take it to smog test, cost, ugh!!!!!

Just enforce Driving While Stupid laws, impound cars and restrict liscences for a long time when injuries ar bad , or deaths occur.

drunk is no different than stupid. Getting drunk before driving is stupid, so is driving and not looking, getting distracted, not paying attention to condtions etc... If being drunk you change lanes and kill someone you go to jail, how is that different that changing lanes without looking and killing someone? both is stupid, both should be punished the same. (Maybe drunk is better, at least a drunk has an excuse for driving stupid, think about that one.)

i would expect simular results from a DWS program as the big crackdown on DUI did in the last decade or so. i think the DUI accident rate has gone way down, maybe by 1/4 or 1/2 i think.

a DWS program with MASS (Mothers Aginst Stupid Shits) ads on billboards and TV would potentialy save 5-10,000 lives per year in the America alone.

That's how it should be done.

PS The DMV is so bad, that you can register without insurance. You just mail them a piece of paper with the yearly extortion (ie yearly liscense fee). They don't read them, i have mailed expired cards, cards for the wrong car, and forgot to put it in the mail with the extortion money. Only a couple times have they written me back asking for the correct card (and only if i failed to include a card) but even with no cards sometimes I'd get new tags. Proof again the DMV is incompentant.

Note all my driven (and a few non-driven) cars are insured and legal, i do not drive without insurance. Just is sometimes I can't find the correct card, don't have the spare copy handy when I need to mail the extortion money, so i use what i have, or send none at all, it works more often than not.

[lapuwali]

This is drifting well past the original question. I'm sure many people think the regs are "a joke". The question is: what are they? I have a reasonable grasp on what they are now in California, but how about elsewhere?

[jd74914]

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jan 5 2006, 04:25 PM)

This is drifting well past the original question. I'm sure many people think the regs are "a joke". The question is: what are they? I have a reasonable grasp on what they are now in California, but how about elsewhere?

Ok. I'll clarify for CT atleast because I went through it all not too long ago.

#1 Permit for 6mos, 4 if you take drivers ed
#2 Need to do a drug/alcohol class if you didn't take drivers ed
#3 After getting you license there is no driving anyone but a parent for 3mos. The next 3mos you can drive a parent or one sibling, after a total of 6mos with a license you can drive as many people as there are seat belts in the car for.
#4 Now there is a state curfew so no driving for people under 18 after 12AM
#5 No trace of alcohol on anyone under 21's breath, I think that more then .002 will get your license taken.

Now, for what is actually true, with explanations corresponding with the numbers they relate to:

#3 Pretty much everyone drives with other people in the car before they legally can, I only know of a handful of kids that have gotten caught illegally driving and they got warnings.
#4 No enforcement of this law at all, or so I have seen (but then again I live in the middle of nowhere). I don't think I have ever gone out and then been home on a Friday or Saturday night earlier than 1AM. There really is no one on the roads so its not a big deal.

[Mark Henry]

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Jan 5 2006, 12:45 AM)

....i passed all test, except that next to almost each of the items, he had written "too fast!" ...

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

When I got my bike licence the test was just going slow around some pylons, then you were to speed up one side(about 100ft), turn the corner and stop.
Then you were to accelerate fast and chirp the rear brake.

Well, I didn't do it fast enough barked the instuctor, "do it again!"

In front of about 20 students I popped a full wheelie, slammed the front end back down and laid down a good 25-30ft skid mark.

The instructor yelled "Good...you pass!"

All the students were just standing there with their jaws on the ground.

[SirAndy]

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jan 5 2006, 01:25 PM)

I have a reasonable grasp on what they are now in California, but how about elsewhere?

can't remember all the details, it's been too long ...

but here it goes, germany, early/mid '80s:

~35 hours of theoretical. at a drivers-school. sitting on a chair
in a classroom with about 20 other people. like real school, you know.
learn everything from road signs to traffic rules to how a car works.
we had models of engines and braking systems etc.
(that was *before* computers!) ...

~15 hours of driving. with your instructor/teacher. in *his* car.
which was prepped with a additional set of pedals on the pass. side.
so he could slam the brake on you if you didn't use it.
included anything from parallel parking, to stop/start on a hill
to rush-hour traffic to autobahn to night driving.
oh yeah, stickshift only! if you were to take your driving test in an
automatic car, your license would be restricted and you're not allowed
to drive a stickshift. ever. 99% of the cars in germany are (at least
were back then) stickshift.

once you got all your hours done and your teacher feels like you're
ready (he can reject you from the final test and you'll have to take
more lessons), you have to pass a final written exam and a driving test
in which you will also have a inspector from the TÜV in the car.
he will make the final decision on if you are worthy of a drivers license.

you can fail this final test twice, fail it the third time, and you're OUT.
for the rest of your life. no license for you ...

i also got my motorcycle license at the same time. that added at least
~5 hours to the theoretical and ~10 hours to the driving.

the whole enchilada cost me about $3000 for the car license and another $1000
for the motorcycle license.

~$4000 total and took some 4 month time.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/driving.gif) Andy

[lapuwali]

And to think teens whine about how hard the California test is...

Thanks, Andy.