Sway Bar Options

[-P-]

I'm getting ready to order a Weltmeister 22m Sway Bar, I assume I need the bar + the U-tab and mounting hardware in addition to the bar. I don't mind drilling holes and pulling the tank, but is the quick mount adaptor acceptable? I'll also order the 140lb rears to go with teh Koni's I jsut got to make this thing handle more predictabley. Right now it's almost scary at speed.

[garyh]

Most 71's are ready to accept a bar from the factory.

Check for a triangle plate in the front wheel well, behing the strut, and the U-tabs should already be on the A-Arms.

Think about balancing the suspension, not just putting heavy springs on.

[-P-]

Most 71's are ready to accept a bar from the factory.

Check for a triangle plate in the front wheel well, behing the strut, and the U-tabs should already be on the A-Arms.

Think about balancing the suspension, not just putting heavy springs on.

I'll check it, thanks for the info.

[ArtechnikA]

Think about balancing the suspension, not just putting heavy springs on.

I'll check it, thanks for the info.

i think what Gary's trying diplomatically to say is 22mm is REALLY big, even for 140# rears. think about a smaller front bar, and maybe stiffer torsion bars. unless you've got a sh!tload of power in the back and really need the understeer...

[Brad Roberts]

Go away old guys. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif)

As he learns to drive it... 3 weeks later that 19mm will be maxed out and he will wish he had a 21mm. I have WAY too many AutoX guy's kicking butt with his suggested setup. The 19mm is OLD SCHOOL.


B

[-P-]

I kind of agree with brad, a 22mm set soft and then increased vs a 19mm which will max out would be a better idea imho.

[ArtechnikA]

Go away old guys. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif)

As he learns to drive it... 3 weeks later that 19mm will be maxed out and he will wish he had a 21mm. I have WAY too many AutoX guy's kicking butt with his suggested setup. The 19mm is OLD SCHOOL.

ok - you're saying the hot setup is stock torsion bars front, 22mm front bar, 140# rear springs, no rear antiroll bar. yes ? with a stock 1,7 engine.

i've done my time autocrossing front-drive cars and i can deal with the understeer...

i'm open to suggestion on what driving technique is used to make this the hot setup.

[Brad Roberts]

Stock front bars with a rear bar..

The 21mm bar set on soft acts just like a 19mm set halfway. So start with a 21mm and have some adjustability. Within 4 autox events he would have the 19 maxed out.

All I look for is options... the 19 runs out of option quickly.


B

[Dave_Darling]

Back to the original question--

NO, the "quick mount" (I assume you mean the "no tank removal required") kit is NOT acceptable. It's two U-bolts that you fish in through the hole you drill for the bar itself. Not very strong...

The "nut plate" setup is much better, as it sandwiches the fender between two flat pieces of metal. Even better is welding the nut plate to the inside of the fender, if you've got the time/tools/skills.

--DD

[garyh]

i think what Gary's trying diplomatically to say...

Me? Diplomatic? Yeah, right.

Last time I checked, there were 6 main components, and they all work together:

Spring rate, front/rear
Shock rate, front/rear
Sway Bar, front/rear

And then there's always "alignment"

G.

[ArtechnikA]

Stock front bars with a rear bar..

The 21mm bar set on soft acts just like a 19mm set halfway. So start with a 21mm and have some adjustability. Within 4 autox events he would have the 19 maxed out.

All I look for is options... the 19 runs out of option quickly.


B

okay, yes, i agree you need a rear bar with that much front - that's what i did when i could not dial out enough understeer with my 19mm bar set full soft.

and of course he is not talking about a 21mm bar, but a 22mm bar, which is a LOT stiffer than 21... and WHOLE LOT stiffer than 19.

and i still don't understand what driving technique is used to take best advantage of all that front roll stiffness.

obviously you're advocating some driving technique that can counteract what ought to be massive understeer. so enlighten me -what am i missing ?

[Jeroen]

Don't get a Weltmeister bar... go for a Tarett bar.
It's not that much more expensive than a Welt-bar (specially when you add the cost of adjustable droplinks added to the Welt bar) and the Tarett bar is a very nice piece of engineering.

Instead of welding the inner reinforcement plates, you can glue them in with Duramix (a special bonding agent for glueing bodypanels)
Makes a very strong bond, and it won't burn your paint/body coating off the wheelwells.
It makes the install very clean and simple.

cheers,

Jeroen

[-P-]

I am looking for a good starting point which leaves me the most options. If, in the future, I need a rear bar and to adjust the front spring/shock rate I will, but for now this makes the most sense.

[airsix]

okay, yes, i agree you need a rear bar with that much front - that's what i did when i could not dial out enough understeer with my 19mm bar set full soft.
(snip)
obviously you're advocating some driving technique that can counteract what ought to be massive understeer.  so enlighten me -what am i missing ?

Two years ago I set my car up with Koni yellows, 180# rear springs, 21mm torsion bars, and 19mm swaybar. I set the swaybar in the middle and proceeded to understeer everywhere I went.

Fast-forward 2 years. The swaybar is now set full-hard and I never feel understeer. I can keep it balanced if I hold back a little. If I don't hold back it's loose. Now I'm wanting more front bar. Same car as it was 2 years ago, but I drive differently now. What changed? Gotta be that I'm learning to get the weight transfered to the front end at turn-in and keep it there through the apex.

Back when I was pushing I tried to examine what was happening any time I got into understeer and I found that it seemed to be because I was entering to slow and getting on the gas to early. I started braking later to load up the front end on turn-in. This gave me more traction in front to carry more speed through the turn. As a result I am faster through the turn even though I'm getting on the gas later, and understeer has disapeared completely.

This has all been me trying to figure out technique on my own and I'd gladly welcome some input. I've never driven with an instructor, which is too bad because I know I could learn a lot.

-Ben M.

[Brad Roberts]

I'm just telling you what the fast guy's are running (Rich). Ben explained the exact situation in his post. I honestly dont care what the slow people are running. For years and years we have listened to what other people have told us to run... guess what.. times have changed. Tires have changed..shocks have changed.

I dont care what setup you give me.. I can make it do anything I want..(understeer/oversteer on command) which is what drivers with a "feel" for the cars end up doing. If I can get them closer to that balance...

Ben also pointed something else out: he is running 21mm bars... all I'm doing with the 22mm sway bar is compensating for lack of torsion bars (running stock bars). The 22mm sway bar keeps my owners from having to step up to bigger torsion bars so soon (much easier to adjust the sway bar than it is to install torsion bars and reset the alignment/ride height.) Adding front bar is just like adding stiffer torsion bars (accept the ride quality doesnt suffer as much.


B

[ArtechnikA]

I'm just telling you what the fast guy's are running (Rich). Ben explained the exact situation in his post.

i never said it wasn't "right" - all i was asking was "what do you have to do to make this right" which Ben elaborated. makes perfect sense - it was how i had to adapt my style to make the GTI work.

thanks for the explanations.

[Brad Roberts]

I have NO clue on how to make the GTI GO.. LOL

Good luck.

I thought you where worrying about the 911 right now ??


Oh.. I thought more on the BBS versus email thing:

Same shit minus the email client. You scroll thru the email just like you would scroll thru the topics here. You click on the topic you want to read (just like you do here). The only difference.. you cant delete it. Oh.. and I think our search function works a lot better than searching the email archives and trying to decipher what you have found.

So... I dont buy the "excuse" I'm getting from people who wont visit a BBS (Pelican included). This had nothing to do with you.. just me thinking about it while your "listening."

B

[ArtechnikA]

I have NO clue on how to make the GTI GO.. LOL

I thought you where worrying about the 911 right now ??


Oh.. I thought more on the BBS versus email thing:

Same shit minus the email client. You scroll thru the email just like you would scroll thru the topics here. You click on the topic you want to read (just like you do here). The only difference.. you cant delete it. Oh.. and I think our search function works a lot better than searching the email archives...

i left the GTI behind in NV, still have to figure out what to do with it someday.

what i was saying was - the GTI was a fundamentally understeering vehicle and the way you've described driving the cars with huge front roll stiffness is exactly how i learned to drive the GTi fast.

the 911 requires not much worrying - just work. some finishing touches and it'll be ready for the ECR, then i start planning its over-winter total suspension refit (which will factor in the outcome of this conversation promiently ...)

in re BBS vs email - yes, your search function is much better, except it gets pissy about search terms - seems 85% of what i want to search for it "too short" and it gets rejected.

the fundamental difference is you have to keep coming back to the 'view new posts' screen to see what's happening - email comes to you unbidden when there is something new and requires zero effort on my part.

each technology has its strong point.

if you put the "view new posts" in an auto-updating shtml or something so i can see in (near) real time what's hapening and you'll really have something.

[Steve]

Dave is right the quick bolts are actually u bolts which end up ripping the metal over time.
I started with the U bolts and someone warned me about it ripping the sheet metal. When I pulled it apart I could see where the holes for the ubolts were starting to rip.
I pulled the tank and used the correct sandwitch mounts.
If your running a six a 22mm sway bar is the way to go.
A six can create a lot of throttle induced oversteer.

Steve

[Jeroen]

the fundamental difference is you have to keep coming back to the 'view new posts' screen to see what's happening - email comes to you unbidden when there is something new and requires zero effort on my part.

You can subscribe to a forum
That way you get an e-mail when ever there's a new post on that forum
The e-mail you receive contains a link that'll take you straight to the thread

cheers,

Jeroen