valve lifters, big dissapointment Options

[cnavarro]

They have raised pushrod cup heights, when compared to stock lifters, so you'll need to reset your pushrod geometry with some cut-to-length pushrods.

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

[Aaron Cox]

oh crap. i may have the dead cam issue. I noticed valve noise so i adjusted the valves...none were more than .001 off. so i fixed the valves and i still have noise....

is there a way i can tell w/o dropping engine or splitting case???? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

[Mark Henry]

oh crap. i may have the dead cam issue. I noticed valve noise so i adjusted the valves...none were more than .001 off. so i fixed the valves and i still have noise....

is there a way i can tell w/o dropping engine or splitting case???? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

You can pull the rockers and pushrod tubes out then fish the lifter out. Total PITA if the engine is in the car but do-able. Most times with flat cam the valve adjustment is way out of wack.

I'm going with ceramics. I'm telling customers to use ceramics or I will not cover the labour cost on flat cams. I just tell them the poop right up front. The old lifter's are at best a crap shoot.

[redshift]

Aaron dood.. if the cam goes flat, you know it. You wouldn't be able to adjust the valves, *and* have the car run (hardly).. it turns into a fuming lopey mess.

Congrats! Unless it's just starting to let go in the last 13 miles, you seem 'ok'. Valves make noise, it's what valves do.


M

[Jake Raby]

I'll be making a BIG post on the STF either late today, or tomorrow about this entire out of control cam and lifter issue. It is getting VERY scary on lifterland these days.

[rhodyguy]

is the lifter issue a problem across the range of applications or only for our engines? you would think the manufacturer(s) would be all over this problem.

kevin

[Brett W]

"oh crap. i may have the dead cam issue. I noticed valve noise so i adjusted the valves...none were more than .001 off. so i fixed the valves and i still have noise...."


ONe thing you should check before you assume a bad cam, is the side play on the rocker arms. If you have to much side play you will still get valve train noise. With the valves adjusted PROPERLY roll the engine up to TDC for each cylinder and try and slide the rocker back and forth if you have more than a couple of thousandths you will have racket. You m,ay also try and adjust the valves a little tighter than the specs, I would only go about .001 or so at a time though and you will need to be much more diligent about checking your valves.

Don't assume right away that you have a cam that was wiped out if you have some valve train noise. Do a couple of vavle adjust and play with your rocker end play first. Then look more closely.

I have a new cam I designed coming from Web in a week or so an I will be using their lifters but I will also test them for hardness and talk with Web and Make sure they will back me if these lifters should wipe out my cam.

[Jake Raby]

Brett is correct. Rockers can wear ne get noisy and the side loading makes a clacking sound.

[JWest]

Jake said somewhere that he purposely floated the valves in a test to abuse the ceramics, and there were no problems.

[Jake Raby]

I made this post yesterday on Pelican....

I have intentionally floated the lifters severely with no issues. as you will read below if you float your valves, someone either can't drive, doesn't have a rev limiter, or has mis figured their valve mass.


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I built the VERY FIRST aircooled street engine to EVER use these lifters- it was a Type I.

Go to my website at www.aircooledtechnology.com and look in my archives for my burnot video with that engine installed in my Blue Bug. That burnout lasted for over 2.5 minutes and I saw constant revs over 7500 RPM. The tach sat at 9,000 RPM for atleast 5 solid seconds. If you listen closely to the engine I miss 2 shifts and you can hear valve float. That was probably well over 9,500 RPM (thats where my valves were calculated to float with the mass of the valve train and the spring tensions used and matched to the camshaft profile) My memoory tach bumped over 10K 3 times!

The same engine was dynoed for 2 solid days when I assembled it and I PURPOSELY FLOATED THE VALVES TO TEST THE LIFTERS ON THE DYNO! since the lifters are the heaviest part of the valvetrain, lightening them is key to making higher revs using less spring tension. This engine made 230 BHP on my dyno- I drove the hell out of it, and now I have sold it, and it still runs great.

Shawn Geers, a well known VW dragracer had a failure with these lifters 4-5 years ago. From what I see his engine was not set up correctly for them and he severely floated his valves.

A correctly configured engine will retain valve control atleast 2K RPM over its powerband. If you can float the valves that easily, don't even build another engine till you figure how to calculate valvetrain mass, and understand the purposes of lighter components, and their important role in valve control.

I think enough about these lifters to put my reputation behind them 100%. I have seen what they can do, and put them to the test. I have torn race engines down using them that had ZERO CAM OR LIFTER WEAR AFTER A FULL SEASON OF 7,000 RPM TWISTING.

Building an engine with ceramics is noticeably different, it even turns by hand easier! Hell I have used 3 DIFFERENT CAMSHAFTS with the SAME set of lifters trying to free UP HP in ONE engine. hat WILL NEVER happen with a conventional lifter.

Guess what Formula 1 series valves are made of??? You got it, ceramics! Guess where the ceramic technology came from- Formula 1 in the earlier days.

If you want flames, I will happily provide the facts that will extinguish your fire. Sir, before doubting components- Test them yourself, or listen to those who have and can provide you with the accurate, first hand information to support their feelings.


These lifters run quieter, last indefinately, are lighter, don't go flat, the pushrod caups are made into them, and are located higher on the lifter for a shorter pushrod to be used which also makes the valvetrain lighter. The lifters have a smaller oil passage incorporated into them to reduce the amount of oil taht ends up in the rocker boxes. Stock dumps way too much in that area. heck, the engine don't even need a cam break in. Just fire it up and let it idle!

If they had ZERO benefits other than the fact that they didn't go flat I'd still use them!! If they cost 600 bucks per engine I'd still buy them for mine!

Until you have had a cam go flat, you don't kniow what the pain feels like. When it happens you just bought all new bearings, and an oil pump, and pssibly a crankshaft as well, since all that cast iron will extrude hone the engine internals. May as well dump 2 handfulls of silica sand in the oil sump- its the same difference.

The cam is the second assembly that drops into the engine. Its the second to last to be removed in a tear down.

Is it worth 400 bucks to ENSURE that you don't have to go back into that engine for a cam issue- HELL YES!


__________________

[mightyohm]

Does anyone have a good reference on how to set up valve train geometry specifically on the type IV? I think there's a book out on building performance VW engines, is it any good?

I'm still an engine rebuilding newbie, so be nice.

[Mueller]

Jake,

switch to decaf my man, LOL


seriously, thanks for the hands on info, I was told by Joe Schubeck not to float the valves when I spoke to him on the phone before buying my lifters from LN Engineering.....

[Jake Raby]

Yeah..... floating valves isn't a good thing at any time, no matter what kind of lifters that you have.

The cam I want to set you up with has such slow ramps that floating them is something that would require pure evil intention to do.

[Korijo]

I just re-read the entire thread... Again. I am now going the ceramic lifter route.

Thanks for NUTHIN', guys (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Mueller]

"pure evil"???

about shear stupidity??? yea, I'll be carefull (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hey Jake,

with that cam, would I lose anything hp or driving wise if a set of dual throttle bodies with EFI accidently appeared on my engine instead of the stock 2.0 intake plenum?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Korijo]

What is the advantage of the oversized lifters compared to the direct replacement lifters ?

Charles, does LN have a payment plan or a lay-away plan ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Seriously... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

[mightyohm]

You get the lifter bores bored out for the oversize lifters. So now you have a nice new lifter bore that is round and free of defects.

[cnavarro]

Layaway. That's pretty funny, considering paypal had a new feature to finance big purchases appear in the merchant tools today. I was just wondering do they offer financing insurance, incase the person falls off the face of the earth? I am thinking of looking into financing purchases with a local bank for customers, but that is highly speculative.

I think we maybe need to get a drop-in group buy going for US customers. That will let me get the quantity up, so I can afford to actually do a group buy on them.

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

fly up and sit on my deck if you want to. SERENITY NOW!!

kevin

Thanks for the offer Kevin. I retire in 2years 8months ( but who's counting). My wife likes the Pacific NW so we may end up there. We visited the San Juans and a few of the smaller towns in the area and kinda liked it. My problem is, if it gets below 50 degress F. I lose conciousness. Anyways keep a spot open on your deck for me and I'll bring the wine, beer, whatever.
Cheers, Elliot

You're gonna be a dead man (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[Aaron Cox]

ONe thing you should check before you assume a bad cam, is the side play on the rocker arms. If you have to much side play you will still get valve train noise. With the valves adjusted PROPERLY roll the engine up to TDC for each cylinder and try and slide the rocker back and forth if you have more than a couple of thousandths you will have racket. You m,ay also try and adjust the valves a little tighter than the specs, I would only go about .001 or so at a time though and you will need to be much more diligent about checking your valves.

yeah...my rockers are pretty well worn. ill check the side play next time its on stands...thanks for the heads up!

i didnt know where to find new rockers/shafts when i built my engine. still dont! where can i pick up a set next time, and are all the rockers the same (ie 1.7, 1.8, 2.0)