diaphram analysis is in and ......, from RustyWA Options

[Bleyseng]

You were correct....COPPER.


--------

Ok, did the marterial analysis on the OEM diaphram this morning using a Niton XL-II 800 handheld alloy analyzer.

I made three different scans of the sample piece I got from Geoff. The readings were as follows:

#1 - 99.78% Cu
#2 - 99.20% Cu
#3 - 99.39% Cu

No berillium. Supposedly anything between 98%-100% copper is considered pure.

The remainder of the 100% reading was a spattering of Al, Si Br, Phos Brz.

--------------------
Eric
'75 914 2.0L

[JeffBowlsby]

Pure copper eh? I am surpised that pure copper would be strong enough to withstand the constant fluxuations. Thats good news Eric (and Geoff), copper sheet is readily available.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smash.gif) Now where is that press....

[Mueller]

I still say it's BeCu......

Add your % findings to the % composition for second type.....

QUOTE

Beryllium Copper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Overview Copper beryllium alloys are used for their high strength and good electrical and thermal conductivities. There are two groups of copper beryllium alloys, high strength alloys and high conductivity alloys. The wrought high strength alloys contain 1.6 to 2.0% beryllium and approximately 0.3% cobalt. The cast, high-strength alloys have beryllium concentrations up to 2.7%. The high conductivity alloys contain 0.2-0.7% beryllium and higher amounts of nickel and cobalt. These alloys are used in applications such as electronic connector contacts, electrical equipment such as switch and relay blades, control bearings, housings for magnetic sensing devices, non sparking applications, small springs, high speed plastic molds and resistance welding systems. Cast beryllium coppers are frequently used for plastic injection molds. The cast materials have high fluidity and can reproduce fine details in master patterns. Their high conductivity enables high production speed, while their good corrosion and oxidation resistance promotes long die life. The UNS designations for the wrought alloys are C17200 through C17400 and the cast alloys are C82000 through C82800. The high strength of the copper beryllium alloys is attained by age hardening or precipitation hardening. The age or precipitation hardening results from the precipitation of a beryllium containing phase from a supersaturated solid solution of mostly pure copper. The precipitation occurs during the slow cooling of the alloys because the solubility of beryllium in alpha copper decreases with decreasing temperature. Typically the alloys are rapidly cooled from the annealing treatment, so the beryllium remains in solid solution with the copper. Then the alloy is given a precipitation or age hardening treatment for an hour or more at a temperature between 200 and 460 C. Upon tempering, the beryllium containing phases, called beryllides, precipitate out of solution.

More reading here:

Be Cu info

[ClayPerrine]

"Diaphram Analysis"....


That title leaves things wide open for some really low comments.....

I am suprised (and a bit disappointed) that no one chose to jump on that!


(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[lapuwali]

What Mueller said. Alloying elements are sometimes found in astonishingly small percentages, yet can make a huge difference to how the material behaves. Now, it's quite possible one could get a useful diaphram made from nearly pure copper, though I'd be willing to bet it wouldn't work nearly as well over wide temperature ranges, which I believe is what the Be was originally put there for: small thermal expansion coefficient.

[alpha434]

A BeCu alloy usually ranges from 0.25% to 2.00% Be.


This falls within the range that was measured, yeah?

[RustyWa]

QUOTE (Mueller @ Feb 27 2006, 04:35 PM)

unless I mistaken, that analyzer will not pickup Be according to the spec sheet...........(unless tested in a vacuum)

That could turn out to be a big bummer. I'll explore the analyzer literature a little more and talk to some other engineers about it.

[tdgray]

I second that respond.

I run a forging operation. If there is one thing I see constantly is the effect of "small" element variations on our work.

Take 1045 steel... normal specs call for anthing from 1042 to 1048 to fall within the range of 1045. But, use the variant on some jobs and you will find siginificant problems with flash extension and grain flow.

I do not profess to know much about steel chemistry but I do know from mixed steel that certain elements can mimic other compositions.

Could this be the case here. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif)

[Mueller]

QUOTE (alpha434 @ Feb 27 2006, 06:30 PM)

A BeCu alloy usually ranges from 0.25% to 2.00% Be. This falls within the range that was measured, yeah?

thanks for repeating what I've already posted a few hours ago (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/screwy.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[Katmanken]

Did you try Rockwell hardness?

Might ID the material that way..

Ken

[alpha434]

And .02% cobalt-nickel used as a stabilizer.

You didn't get and cobalt or nickle, did ya?

My bet is that it isn't BeCu.

[tdgray]

Oh great another bet from the aplha dog... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif)

Rockwell IIRC cannot determine chemical composition. Just suggest at it. Same as spark testing etc.

[alpha434]

QUOTE (tdgray @ Feb 27 2006, 05:39 PM)

Oh great another bet from the aplha dog... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif) Rockwell IIRC cannot determine chemical composition. Just suggest at it. Same as spark testing etc.

Yeah.

Wanna bet?

I KNOW I'm right here. This is my area. I had to write a four page report on Cupric alloys for school.

[tdgray]

Yes I would wanna bet little shaver.


If I give you a raw piece of steel...then you can give me the chemical composition of the steel...

Jesus you must be F'in magic. I will hire you as the Chief metalurgist at my plan if you can do that.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/huh.gif)

[alpha434]

it's 1080.

And you couldn't afford me.

[alpha434]

The initial readings were given at the top of this thread.

If there is no nickel and no cobalt, then it will not be BeCu.

[Katmanken]

Ok boys,

I cut and pasted the tester into a search engine and found..... (drumroll please..)

The tester used doesn't have Beryllium as a listed material that it can detect- with ANY isotope.

Rockwell is a dumb easy practical test that can be used to narrow the materials. Depending on the results, you can eliminate a number of materials and hardnesses. (this one is too soft, this one is too hard, this one is JUST right)

Alpha, what are ya gonna do if you have two different Cu materials/treatments that have the same hardness... You won't be able to get alloys by hardness. You can narrow the possibilities but other tests are needed.

Ken

[alpha434]

You can usually tell JUST by machinability. BeCu chips are kinda powdery, and its easy to get a good finish. Cu comes off like chewying gum.
You don't have a large enough piiece to machine.
You can't chemically test it for fear of realeasing the Be.

I dunno! That one's tough. I'll brainstorm.

[Aaron Cox]

i rockwell tested my hootus... it said it was hard (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[Mueller]

QUOTE (kwales @ Feb 27 2006, 06:51 PM)

Ok boys, I cut and pasted the tester into a search engine and found..... (drumroll please..) The tester used doesn't have Beryllium as a listed material that it can detect- with ANY isotope. Rockwell is a dumb easy practical test that can be used to narrow the materials. Depending on the results, you can eliminate a number of materials and hardnesses. (this one is too soft, this one is too hard, this one is JUST right) Alpha, what are ya gonna do if you have two different Cu materials/treatments that have the same hardness... You won't be able to get alloys by hardness. You can narrow the possibilities but other tests are needed. Ken

I posted that on the other thread on this subject...the tester "might" be able to find Bu if used in a vac.

how much movement does a diaphram see?

wouldn't be too hard to just make a fixture to run some sample cycle tests of differing alloys