GGR points classifications proposed changes for 914s next season, what do you GGR folks think? Options

[DanT]

Proposed by Billd on the GGR chat site

this is on the GGR web chat site...it is a proposal to make some changes to the points system with regard to 914s

GGR folks should take a look at this and the current rules> this is a proposal for 2007 rules changes.


1. Base points for 914s:

Proposal: Change the autocross base points for a 914 2.0 to 225 for a 914 1.7 or 1.8 to 200 and for a 914-6 to 250. Change the time trial base points for a 914/6 to 175.

Rationale: The current AX base point assignments for mid-engine cars are not appropriate. A base point assignment in line with the 2005 PAX scores would be more fair. A 914 2.0 had a 2005 PAX score of 0.881 which less than the 0.885 of a 911T (class G) which is currently assigned 250 points. The 2.0L 914 has a power to weight ratio comparable to an early 924 which is assigned 150-175 points or a 912 which is assigned 175 points.

The argument that 914s deserve a 150 point differential from their TT base points for autocross because they handle well is not valid. Under the current rules, car modifications such as springs, torsion bars, and sway bars are relatively inexpensive (in terms of points) making it easy to achieve balanced handling on all cars. Thus penalizing a 914 by 150 points for balanced handling puts it at a serious disadvantage compared to a 912 or 911T with suspension modifications.

This proposal does provide a “mid engine” penalty over and above the TT base points for 914s but makes this penalty a more reasonable 75 points for a 2.0L 914.

The base points adjustment proposed for a 914/6 is based on the fact that a 914/6 (class F) has exactly the same 2005 PAX rank (0.881) as a 914 2.0 and a weight to power (20 lbs/hp) only slightly better than a 914 2.0 (23-25 lbs/hp) and less than a 911T (16-1Cool and hence deserves only a small penalty (25 points) compared to a 914 2.0 for both autocross and time trial. The 914/6 is about 100 lbs heavier than a 914-2.0 and has 15 more horsepower – 110 vs 95. This is a small difference – worth 25 points, not 100.

As further data to support this proposal, the attached spreadsheet shows all times recorded for cars in classes A, B, C, G, and F for the 2004 and 2005 autocross series. All times are normalized to the TTOD (i.e., 1.28 means the time is 1.28 times that of the fastest car that day). Times above 1.5 times TTOD were discarded as outliers – this is clear from the scatter plot. The results show that the three 914s belong at 200, 225, and 250 respectively. The 914 1.8 has an average time of 1.33, slower than any of the other car types compared. The 914 2.0 had an average time of 1.28 – tied with an early 911T (250 points) and a 912 (175 points). The 914-6 had an average time of 1.26 – between the early and late 911Ts. Note that all of the 914s are slower than the 944 (225 points) and 924S (275 points).

[Trekkor]

It'll be interesting to see what is done.

I'm pretty happy where I am and feel like my driving will improve as the season progresses.


KT

[DanT]

It'll be interesting to see what is done.

I'm pretty happy where I am and feel like my driving will improve as the season progresses.


KT

Tell me you are happy with your situation in TT...check out the times run at TH and the cars you will be running against and then let us know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Lets see hmmmm, RSAs, 993s, 951s, 3.2 Carreras all of which are on much larger sticky tires not to mention 2X the horsepower and newer suspesion systems....

these cars are all capable of turning 2:05s in the right hands....unfortunately your car in it's present state is not.....sorry.

[Trekkor]

Yeah, I was just thinking about a/x.

I'll be doing fantastic if I can *someday* get down to a 2:10-15 at TH.

Guys in TT8 are running 1:54's at Sears to my 2:13.

I guess the big thing is cleaning up the TT classing.


KT

[DanT]

Yeah, I was just thinking about a/x.

I'll be doing fantastic if I can *someday* get down to a 2:10-15 at TH.

Guys in TT8 are running 1:54's at Sears to my 2:13.

I guess the big thing is cleaning up the TT classing.


KT

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[DanT]

Trekkor,

Just for comparison....I was doing 2:12s at Th with my 951 with turbo cup sway bars, Konis, and ~300hp.
A 2:10 in your car would be a near perfect lap on the ragged edge....I just don't think you have enough HP, suspension, or tire no matter (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[Steve_7x]

So let me get this straight... the proposal has a 914-2.0 going down 75 points (from 300 to 225)? This alone would push me from Ax3 to Ax4. Hmhhh not sure how to respond to this one...

Dan,

I would voice my opinion... but I don't want to run aginst guys with 300-400hp in my class (I got about 130) and I don't want to drop classes either. This points system has been very ackward.

BTW... the other item recently proposed, eliminating the Ladies class has me scratching my head. I have been very surprised at the lack of lady drivers with GGR and less so in the Zone. When I ran with SCCA at the Shriner's Charity event last year - the Ladies represented about 10% of the entrants (20 drivers out of approximately 200). Eliminating the ladies class would ensure that participation from women would remain low and this seems contrary to what the Porsche Club is about.

Steve

[Randal]

Trekkor,

Just for comparison....I was doing 2:12s at Th with my 951 with turbo cup sway bars, Konis, and ~300hp.
A 2:10 in your car would be a near perfect lap on the ragged edge....I just don't think you have enough HP, suspension, or tire no matter (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

So in order for the rules to be fair, there has to be some sort of baseline that eliminates disparities between cars. For example: If your 2.0 liter can pull off a 2:15 lap at TH, with a instructor level driver and a 951 is pulling a 2:10, again with a instructor level driver, and these cars are classed the same - then the system doesn't work.

But in reality the real question is whether or not you can get GGR to look unbiased at their own rule definition.

My view is that some of the "principals" that determined the (current) rules were under a conflict of interest, in that they were rating their own cars and made concessions they wanted.

It is unfortunate in that a lot of work by dedicated people went into defining the new rules, but it’s tough to not have a jaded view when conflicts of interest are condoned.

[DanT]

You are right on with your basic assumptions Randal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Steve, they wanted to eliminate the ladies classes last year. They just didn't get around to it because they were having enough trouble with the basic proposal.

Other clubs use a points based system, but they start with basic assumptions about certain cars....like 914-4s, 356s, and original 924s. That these cars in their basic forms are very underpowered so they only compete against themselves. Not until they are very highly modified do they begin to compete against newer, more high powered cars.

Lets face it, a limited slip is worth more in a 400+HP twin turbo than it is in a 100hp 914. But with our current rules structure they both get the same point hit.

Many modifications are in this same vein.

Take a look at a class like TT12 for example, basically BP style 914s running against RSAs, SCs, 3.2 Carreras, 944 Turbos, Boxsters etc. Every car has much more HP and many have much newer suspension types.

I have a '99 Boxster and my 2.0L . If I put a good set of street tires on my Boxster like Azenis 615s and then run it against my 914 as it is currently set up, I will beat my 914 every time. I know this because I have done it at TH running CCW. In my basically stock Boxster I can run sub 2:15s all day. I have done it last year. In my 914 I would be pressed to do a 2:15 in timed runs with everything just perfect. The track record for a very highly prepped 914 2.0L was a high 2:15 I believe.

This is what we have and with this being proposal season. All of you need to look at the current points and see what you can come up with.

Make proposals that not only effect 914s but that help narrow the disparities that are apparent in the current rules for other car types as well.

My $.02 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[DanT]

.....and there you go.

[Steve_7x]

Dan... when I looked at the GGR page I thought David was bringing up the request again...I may be wrong on that...

As for the proposed rule changes... I will refrain from voicing what should be done because
#1 I am AutoX only
#2 - anything that lowers the 914 base points by 75 will likely drop me a class to AX4 (with current class breakout) and agreement with this will seem like I am trying to drop a class.

As I said earlier, this points system is very ackward. The old rules clearly stated that a modifed car like mine with 4 clylinders and under 2.2 liters would run in X. While the points may benefit those who modify or bought cars modified beyond a certain allocated amount (our old system) by giving them a class, it also in at least some cases paired them with cars where they could not reasonable expect to compete with.

Grant... yep... been beaten by those shifter karts so I very much know what you mean by changing momentum quickly. However the compasrison is not 100% refelctive since there are 'sizable' diferences between Carts and a lightweight 914 - such as more effecient brakes (per weight), much lower center of gravity, incredible lb/hp (see below), and they are much narrower then any 914.

Some Cart specs from Bondurant:

Shifter Cart
200lbs with 38hp = 5.26lbs/hp
Cornering Force 2.5g!!!
0-100mph 6 secs
0-100-0mph 10 secs
Brakes F/R Disk

Tag Cart
180lbs with 25hp = 7.2lbs/hp
Cornering Force 2.5g!!!
Top Speed 80mph
Brakes Rear Disk

I agree with you that having both of our cars classified as Ax3 is not correct. The resolution witht he points system, unfortunately, is not as clear cut imho.

Steve

[DanT]

Grant,
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) HP HP HP,
not to mention, limited slips, big tires, big (wide) wheels, and computer controlled traction control, ABS, and computer controlled suspensions.

If I were paying close to $100K for a new Carrera 2S I expect to see some good results.

At the track the new cars come out completely stock with street tires and run in the sub 2:10s all day. And can be driven below 2:05 when pushed. These are at TH.

[DanT]

Remember Grant,

The really experienced AXers are driving older modified cars for the most part.

The newbies are showing up with the new iron....

Give that new car to one of the experienced AXers and let them drive it all day and I think you would see some very interesting and disturbing results.....IMHO

[Joe Ricard]

I STILL want to buy a KART.

[DanT]

Obviously we differ in our overall opinion. I agree that weight makes a big difference. But I also think that the HP and computer aided driving gizmos also have a big impact.

Last year I drove a 3.4L Boxster at the Zone 7 school. Set fastest time of the weekend by instructors on the large course. the other instructors were driving their own preppared cars.

On the small tight course I drove a GT2 on street tires and again set the fastest instructor time on that course with a big heavy car.

I only got to drive each of those cars for one lap on each course. And still set the fastest laps. Other instrctors in their own cars got anywhere from 2 laps to 4 laps on each course in their own cars.

By the way I prefferred the Boxster over the GT2.

Just my personal experience but I think that could happen on a lot of AXs if the right folks were driving the newer cars. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[nine14cats]

If anyone wants to sponsor me in a Cayman S or a new 987 S, I'll volunteer to give up my ride for a year!.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

I've instructed people driving the Cayman S and the new 987's and I think that these cars, especially the Cayman S, could be a top 5 car all season in AX. The car's on board electronics make the car great at throttle, braking and just overall handling.

The rules are new for the GGR classes, so more tweaking is in order to rearrange the points classing. Having Steve N.'s car classed the same as Grant's illustrates this point.

My opinion is that if the trailered contingent shows up to run (Andrew B. Steve N., Tom Provasi, Randal, etc) they will migrate towards the top 5 and bump all of the street cars correspondingly. A car that you can drive to the event on the street will often times not be a TTOD car if the race cars show up. Just look at the standings when the big dogs come out, normally at Zone Events. The same guys and gals are filling out the leaderboard. It's a combination of power to weight, the cars having such stick to them with the slicks/dot r's and the fact that these guys drive at such a high level.

That is why it would be interesting to see one of those 4 drivers I mentioned campaign a Cayman S for a couple of years and set it up. Can the technology beat a 914?

Anyone want to sponsor me? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Bill P.

[J P Stein]

If anyone wants to sponsor me in a Cayman S or a new 987 S, I'll volunteer to give up my ride for a year!.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

.

That is why it would be interesting to see one of those 4 drivers I mentioned campaign a Cayman S for a couple of years and set it up. Can the technology beat a 914?

Anyone want to sponsor me? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Bill P.

Ok, so it's a slow night. ....made slower by whatever Bill is smokin'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif)

I can't get around the goofy name of that sucker.
Also can't get around the fact that an otherwise great chassis is *made to be slower than a 9eleben*.
I also can't get around the dumbed down, wet sump engine.

A car that Porsche won't build:
A clubsport (with all that entails) Gayman with a GT3 engine.

[Britain Smith]

Nah, I see Brad running his 2.5 Boxster at several events on Hoosiers without ANY issues.

-Britain

[Trekkor]

Yeah, and I thought he refers to those motors as "throw aways". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


KT

[DanT]

we have a fellow in GGR that has been flogging his 2.5 Boxster on the track ever since the car was new and has always used DOTRs. His car now has like 90K miles and alot of that is on the track with no motor issues.

I have tracked my 2.5L Boxster many times in the past with 18" DOTRs with no issues.

Go on the Babblers.org and see what folks have to say about Boxsters on the track. I have heard about more folks having engine problems with street only driven cars than the cars that go to the track.

the reason you don't see more Boxsters being raced has to do with the factory not supporting them the way they do 911s.

IMO (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)