Thermostats, Do ya' need em' Options

[2-OH!]

73 - 2.0 - rustoration...

Tub due back from paint next week...Building up the motor now and I can not find a good replacement thermostat, mines shot...

I have a very reliable source tell me since I live in So. Cal. to just leave it out along with all the flapper doors and mechanism...

Need other thoughts and opinions ???


2-OH!

[mihai914]

Without the thermostat it will only take longer for the engine to get to operating temp which may be a non-issue for you since you're in California. But DO NOT remove the flaps and the mechanism or it will screw up the flow for proper cooling on the cylinder fins and the cooler.

[Brad Roberts]

He is correct. You can leave out the t-stat. I remove the cross shaft and one side of the flaps. You HAVE to leave the one over the cooler or it will not see any cooling air. When installing the fan shroud, I place the oil cooler flap under the two "wings" of the tin shroud piece for the cooler. This gurantees me that the oil cooler will always have air from the fan. I also take the oil cooler flap and bend the folded end that snaps onto the pegs up a little. This helps capture slightly more air for the oil cooler coming from the fan.

Hard to describe without pics.. easy if I'm standing there with it in my hand!


B

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

Oh boy.
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I completely disagree! You want the engine to get to operating temp as soon as possible and the cooling system is responsible for this. You don't want to over-cool the engine, either, and the cooling system is responsible for this as well. I don't give a rats-ass where the engine 'lives', I can guarantee that the outside temperature isn't going to be the same temperature that the engine operates in unless you live on Venus (or closer)! Longer engine warm-up time -- if it even gets there -- will increase wear and decrease longevity. That's a fact. Period.

[Brad Roberts]

I dont disagree.

But... oils today have changed and I have yet to see a new T-stat!

I think if my day time temp starts off at 85deg, the engine without a T-stat will warm up quicker than Bruce in the great white north on a 25 degree day.

I'm betting if we had an engineer from VW here, he would tell us they used a T-stat for emissions reasons more than wear reasons. The sooner the engine warms up the less rich it will be running..less emissions.

I'm coming up on 20 years of engine building without flaps. I have lost 3 engines total over that time. Two of them where machine shop mistakes that I didnt catch on the crankshafts. I try to keep in contact with every engine built over that time. The other one was my first engine at age 15. I blocked off the breather ports and lost all the mobil1 out of a high revving 1911 with 2.0 heads.


B

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

I know of TWO VW certified mechanics I can get you that will disagree! Go to TheSamba.com in the Type 3 forum and ask (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I also understand their purpose from an engineering stand point as well. Don't need to be an engine builder for that.

The thermostat flaps have been used in the engines since day one to regulate operating temp. Long before emissions was ever a care. Any emissions regulations that were adapted to the engines came in the form of ancilliary devices.

If an engine is well built (like yours) I have no doubt that they will live. But how much longer would they live if properly temp. regulated? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

The thermostat system weight is negligible nor is it complex. Why even consider leaving it out? And, from what you posted, a part of it needs to be in place any way for oil cooling. Just doesn't make logical sense.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[Brad Roberts]

Sell me new t-stats. That is all I'm asking for. These people dont use the cars like they did from 70-79 (everyday) where warmup was very important.

Feel free to leave the flaps in. I'm not concerned about weight, but they really dont do much unless the flaps are connected to a working T-stat (which I cant find.. doesnt mean they are not out there)

The big automakers where working on emissions in the mid 60's. They knew what was coming. 68 Camaro's had smog pumps on them (coming from the gas guzzling 'mericans) I would find it very hard to beleive that VW and Porsche didnt know anything about it.

Um duh.. thinking back on this more.. VW and Porsche gave you emissions specs for everything from 1967 and on. Why would they do this if they were'nt concerned?

[Rand]

I'd be interested in knowing just how much quicker a TIV with a thermostat really warms up. I don't have a thermostat and my car warms up real quick. I imagine it would make a more dramatic difference in a water cooled engine. I would say a majority of air-cooled engines overall do not have a thermostat... I've never seen an aircooled motorcycle or airplane with a thermostat.

[Brad Roberts]

Emissions.

I'm gathering that he thinks I'm disagreeing with him. I'm not.

I have worked on LOTS of cars with working t-stats and I did actual timing of with and without (because I was concerned).. it was a difference of 2-3minutes on 60degree mornings.

I still say it was emissions related more then wear related.


B

[Cap'n Krusty]

The default position favors the oil cooler. I'm sure they did that so engines would live after Tstat failure. There are NO thermostats available on the open market, and haven't been for years. I used them when they were available, and moved to the default positioning technique thereafter. I've built and maintained T4 engines for 33 years, and run them thermostatless for at least 10. No problems so far in this temperate climate. I see NO wear issues, at least not to the degree that it's make a rats patootie of difference over the life of the engine. 356s never had 'em, nor 912s, nor 911s. T1s had 'em, and were fine with the flaps in the default, not so good w/o the flaps. I agree with Brad, it's smog stuff. The Cap'n

[Brad Roberts]

The motorcyle point and airplane point opened my eyes. I didnt even think down that path.

All injected cars emit their highest emissions during cold start. It would make sense that they would want a "fast warmup" cycle to get the engine off of cold start as fast as possible.

I also believe he is correct about the wear, but I think this was more of a concern back then when your oil choices were very slim.

I only know of 2-3 factory trained 356 early VW guys left in CA. (all Germans who where sent here by VW and Porsche to train people in the USA)



B

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

The motorcyle point and airplane point opened my eyes. I didnt even think down that path.

I think that would be a different path, at least when it comes to airplanes.

...
I also believe he is correct about the wear, but I think this was more of a concern back then when your oil choices were very slim.
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Good point, I hadn't thought about that [oil technology] (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[jwilliamadams]

I purchased a new thermostat from Automobile Atlanta not too long ago and they still have them listed as available on their site. Personally I would leave the thermostat attached, along with the original flaps.

[JPB]

How about oil heaters to heat up the oil before the car starts. Would that help on the longrun?