GGR AX #5 today, very challenging course Options

[DanT]

From GGR rule book....this rule book is used for all of zone 7 AX
some of the pertinent points for AX course design.




2.3A
# Course design shall be determined so that all motion is forward and reverse gear is not required.
# Course boundaries shall be determined by existing terrain and/or white chalk lines or equivalent, and outlined with pylons. The base of each pylon shall be outlined on the pavement with no part of the pylon located inside the course boundary.
# Course boundaries shall remain the same for all drivers. If, while on course, a driver observes a course change, he must stop immediately and report the course change to course personnel, at which time the driver is to leave the course by the most direct route and be given an official re-run.
# Course width shall be a minimum width of twenty feet, and any turn or chicane shall have a minimum inside radius of twenty-five feet.

you will notice that the rules says the course shall be determined by terrain and or chalk lines....AND outlined with pylons

so the course we ran last weekend and any other course where the course is not completely outlined with CHALK would not meet the minimum standards and would therefor be in violation of our rules????


HMMM (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

[J P Stein]

From GGR rule book....this rule book is used for all of zone 7 AX
some of the pertinent points for AX course design.

# Course width shall be a minimum width of twenty feet, and any turn or chicane shall have a minimum inside radius of twenty-five feet.

you will notice that the rules says the course shall be determined by terrain and or chalk lines....AND outlined with pylons

so the course we ran last weekend and any other course where the course is not completely outlined with CHALK would not meet the minimum standards and would therefor be in violation of our rules????


HMMM (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

Hay, that ain't bad.....that's 20 foot minimum...no maximum width. Also, 25 foot minimum radius for corners ain't bad... I don't like the sea of cones bit tho.
Maybe the guy you were talkng to doesn't know what "minimum" means.

[Trekkor]

the August Zone event you'll be driving on my course.

I should be there. I like your courses, Randal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap56.gif)

The first a/x I ever ran after my SIX conversion was your course.

And...You were my first a/x insructor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Thanks again for your help.


KT

[DanT]

JP the problem is that the folks desingning our courses have not read the rule book and don't know the minimum standards. Every AX I go to I end up pacing off many areas and widening them to at least the minimum...did it at least a dozen or more times last weekend.
As you say...it is the minimum and does not say anything about a maximum...
I remember a gate at a specific AX a couple years ago that 914s and narrow body 911s could go thru but all the other newer, wider, cars had to negotiate around....yielding a higher time for those newer cars. Someone did not read the rules when setting up that course.

the one that gets me is the lining of the course with chalk or using the terrain, and then placing cones to line the course. The cones are to be placed outside of the chalk or terrain boundries.
I don't see this as a sea of cones but to use the cones as markers denoting direction changes, apexes, or walls to slow folks down.

[Steve_7x]

Thanks Randal!

I will amend my comment...

Yep the GGR/Zone 7 rule is 20 feet wide but also states that inside radius should be 25'. That means that we should have at least 25' from the inside radius on any corner... that would mean that the boxes before the first slalom would need to have 25 feet of distance between them diagonally (I hope that makes sense).

FYI - while SCCA states course width at 15', they also state that Slaloms need to be a minimum of 45 feet apart (no max provided) and that any series of corners (like boxes) must meet that rule as well.

Those that have Acrobat can download the whole SCCA rule book from here (free). Course stuff starts at page 18 I believe:

http://www.scca.org/_FileLibrary/File/2006_solo_rules.pdf

[Steve_7x]

Well stated Dan.

I have been tempted to go Home Depot and buy a 25 foot long length of plastic chain and go take it out on a course walk.

Better yet it would be a good thing to have in each Regions Trailer.

Steve

[Steve_7x]

Randal,

Not sure if we can make it to Alameda afterall.. still lookign at budgets and all. We will have just gotten back from Parade and autocrossing against JP twice in a week (hey JP!). Stay tuned.

Steve

[Randal]

From GGR rule book....this rule book is used for all of zone 7 AX
some of the pertinent points for AX course design.




2.3A
# Course design shall be determined so that all motion is forward and reverse gear is not required.
# Course boundaries shall be determined by existing terrain and/or white chalk lines or equivalent, and outlined with pylons. The base of each pylon shall be outlined on the pavement with no part of the pylon located inside the course boundary.
# Course boundaries shall remain the same for all drivers. If, while on course, a driver observes a course change, he must stop immediately and report the course change to course personnel, at which time the driver is to leave the course by the most direct route and be given an official re-run.
# Course width shall be a minimum width of twenty feet, and any turn or chicane shall have a minimum inside radius of twenty-five feet.

you will notice that the rules says the course shall be determined by terrain and or chalk lines....AND outlined with pylons

so the course we ran last weekend and any other course where the course is not completely outlined with CHALK would not meet the minimum standards and would therefor be in violation of our rules????


HMMM (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

Your last point is well taken.

The SCCA bible says that courses should be lined, so that drivers don't get confused and can concrentrate on learning the best line.

[Trekkor]

I remember a gate at a specific AX a couple years ago that 914s and narrow body 911s could go thru but all the other newer, wider, cars had to negotiate around....

That was the Halloween course at the stick two years ago.
Thread the needle, baby!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chairfall.gif)

We were working that station and paced it off. then we paced off the car width back in the paddock...Six inches to spare. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mueba.gif)

We liked it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/naughty.gif)

They changed the course, too. A lot of people didn't know about the change until they were adding cones and going DNF. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)


KT

[Trekkor]

I prefer a lined course and have pushed the chalker many a time.
That thing needs replacing. really sticks.


KT

[Randal]

Well stated Dan.

I have been tempted to go Home Depot and buy a 25 foot long length of plastic chain and go take it out on a course walk.

Better yet it would be a good thing to have in each Regions Trailer.

Steve

Don't worry I already have a 30 foot wide marker as I try to make all my course wider. That's why I got so concerned on Saturday when I heard 20 wide (period, i.e., no larger than). Didn't make any sense.

[Trekkor]

That's the great thing about the gridded concrete at Marina.

You just tell all the helpers in the morning, "one and a half squares wide, please" ( 30 feet )


KT

[Randal]

JP the problem is that the folks desingning our courses have not read the rule book and don't know the minimum standards. Every AX I go to I end up pacing off many areas and widening them to at least the minimum...did it at least a dozen or more times last weekend.
As you say...it is the minimum and does not say anything about a maximum...
I remember a gate at a specific AX a couple years ago that 914s and narrow body 911s could go thru but all the other newer, wider, cars had to negotiate around....yielding a higher time for those newer cars. Someone did not read the rules when setting up that course.

the one that gets me is the lining of the course with chalk or using the terrain, and then placing cones to line the course. The cones are to be placed outside of the chalk or terrain boundries.
I don't see this as a sea of cones but to use the cones as markers denoting direction changes, apexes, or walls to slow folks down.

OK Dan now I need your expert help.

If I look at the SCCA book it shows the lines intersecting the cones. If you read (page 47 of 121) of the SCCA book it says lines should not be so far outside the cones as to not be visable, when someone is lining outside the cones.

It also says that the lining of the course shouldn't overlap the correct line, as open wheel drivers will tell you right away.

So it sounds optional, but it doesn't ever say to line inside the cones..

[DanT]

Our rules specifically state that the terrain and or the chalk are the boundries of the course. NO part of the pylon shall be inside the course boundries.
What this says to me is that the base of the pylon should be right on the chalk line or terrain boundry. Not way off to the outside but not inside either.
So the chalk and the terrain are really what delineates the course....if you read our rules with a strict interpretation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

You are right Randal...I looked at the SCCA book also and got that same impression.

[Trekkor]

I like it when the chalk line is on the inside of the cones. That way you can run over the chalk and not hit a cone.

I don't ever drive, "by the chalk". I just know it's there, out of the corner of my eye (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


KT

[DanT]

According to zone 7 rules the chalk line is always supposed to be inside the pylons. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif)

[grantsfo]

SCCA courses have been much more fun for me to drive. More open and easier to navigate. More time spent on getting every last ounce of momentum out of the car rather than going into a sea of cones on an unneccesarily tight course. Nice flow as well.

Trekkors designs at Marina were good - especially the one with the loop. Redwood region is a blast too! hard to get lost at that venue. I enjoyed SVR AX a couple years ago as well.

Many of the GGR courses are confusing etc. However I just appreciate that people volunteer to run these things and design the course regardless of how it turns out. I have a real appreciation for the hard work people put into these events.

But having said that seems to me when you have a big field of cars with huge variation in driving skills that simplifying a course leads to safer enviroment and ulimately more runs due to fewer reruns. Lots of reruns this past Saturday due to course workers not being able to get back in time after cones were knocked down. We had a couple close calls at my station as well. Also reduces the amount of people needed to work a course. Seems like some real simple guidelines could be developed for those with little course design expereince.